Kenneth Copeland; Tongues As Languages Not Learned etc. 2


The following was originally here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2856901/posts?page=1

Where the Religion Moderator ended up locking the thread due to

“Childish behavior – all about individual Freepers”

This is to provide a safe place for constructive dialogue about the issues to continue. Chronic, rabid, irrational, obnoxious, prissy, contrarian naysayers are uninvited. They are welcome to go suck rocks or rock candy or lolly pops.

Life is too short and The Kingdom too important and the END TIMES too increasingly hazardous to waste an opportunity for good dialogue on such hideousness.

Kenneth Copeland; Tongues as Languages Not Learned etc

That curious, mystifying space between Quix’s ears

| 9 MAR 2012

| Quix

Posted on Friday, March 09, 2012 11:46:28 AM by Quix

I’m a bit loathe to wade into such again. However, The Lord HAS brought to my awareness a couple of things this past week that kind of goad me into posting. I’m MORE loathe to allow Holy Spirit to go unrepresented on such scores on FR after the recent thrashing His works received on that other locked thread.

I’m NOT interested in going around and around with the more irrationally and unBiblically harsh posters on that other thread. They will likely arrive and rant as they did on that thread. I may or may not respond with pics and gifs. I don’t plan to engage them with yet more futile words.

And, the chronically, habitually, generally carpy naysayers can just go suck rock candy or lolly pops. Their reaping is already scheduled. If they want to earn more of such from The Lord, that’s their business.

I know the authenticity of Holy Spirit’s gifts and workings in my own life. I have to be responsible to His interactions with me and leadings of me in my own life. And, as I feel led, to speak up in behalf of His gifts in this era.

I don’t feel responsible to try and bore a hole and pour it in. And, I am not inclined to get two bricks and try and make the camel drink water. Doesn’t work with women anyway.

That said . . .

I learned this week that the wife of a close relative of mine was miraculously healed in a Kenneth Copeland service. She had a serious case of . . . [serious]. . . cancer in advanced stages and was not expected to live. Her blood count was 5 but I don’t know what aspect of her blood count was 5. Maybe I’ll find out and post it later.

My relative had escorted her to the front row where she sat, unable to stand and looking like ‘death warmed over’ in extreme weakness.

Kenneth instructed his wife Gloria to go down and lay hands on her. She was immediately and totally healed. She went to the Doc for an already scheduled appointment the next day. He said there was no sign of cancer anywhere in her body and that he was dumfounded as he was never wrong.

As I understand it, the medical verification documentation is quite conclusive. She may even publish it all in her own narrative in due course. I’m not inclined to give more info for my privacy.

I think I learned that this last Tuesday evening.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Last Wednesday evening at church, Pastor related the following narrative.

She had been on a mission trip to Guatemala. In one of their gatherings in one of the poorest churches–a ramshackle tin building affair . . . a local church member began to give a message in tongues. This person had never learned English at all.

The woman spoke quite clear English and told of how God was going to give them a newer larger building much better for their church.

The woman had no idea what she had said. When Pastor’s team told her what she’d said, she broke down almost in convulsions for joy and in humility over the Lord using her so to bring such a longed for message to her congregation. As I understand it, that did then transpire exactly as she’d declared in a language she did not know.

On the same mission trip, they went to a very wealthy church led by a Pastor who lived in a wealthy home with marble walls etc. Pastor visited the man’s opulent home.

Holy Spirit spoke to Pastor and told her that the man was having an affair with his secretary and that Pastor must confront him and call him to repentance. Pastor has a very powerful prophetic gifting though is not per se a prophet.

Pastor told their local tour guide who was in personal relationship with all the pastors of the churches they visited–including this wealthy one. She replied to Pastor: “You’d better be right!”

Pastor confronted him and he admitted it. He did not repent but justified it with sleezey rationalizing that he was ‘supposed to love the sheep.’

I felt when Pastor related the story that the man has since, rather soon after that, died but I haven’t verified that even with Pastor. She may not know.

Such experiences have been observed off and on over most of my 65 year old life.

Those who have such experiences are like the blind man Christ healed:

John 9:

New Living Translation (©2007)

The Pharisees asked the man all about it. So he told them, “He put the mud over my eyes, and when I washed it away, I could see!”

Some of the Pharisees said, “This man Jesus is not from God, for he is working on the Sabbath.” Others said, “But how could an ordinary sinner do such miraculous signs?” So there was a deep division of opinion among them.

Then the Pharisees again questioned the man who had been blind and demanded, “What’s your opinion about this man who healed you?” The man replied, “I think he must be a prophet.”

The Jewish leaders still refused to believe the man had been blind and could now see, so they called in his parents. 19 They asked them, “Is this your son? Was he born blind? If so, how can he now see?”

20 His parents replied, “We know this is our son and that he was born blind, 21 but we don’t know how he can see or who healed him. Ask him. He is old enough to speak for himself.” 22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who had announced that anyone saying Jesus was the Messiah would be expelled from the synagogue. 23 That’s why they said, “He is old enough. Ask him.”

24 So for the second time they called in the man who had been blind and told him, “God should get the glory for this,[b] because we know this man Jesus is a sinner.”

25 “I don’t know whether he is a sinner,” the man replied. “But I know this: I was blind, and now I can see!”

26 “But what did he do?” they asked. “How did he heal you?”

27 “Look!” the man exclaimed. “I told you once. Didn’t you listen? Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples, too?”

28 Then they cursed him and said, “You are his disciple, but we are disciples of Moses! 29 We know God spoke to Moses, but we don’t even know where this man comes from.”

30 “Why, that’s very strange!” the man replied. “He healed my eyes, and yet you don’t know where he comes from? 31 We know that God doesn’t listen to sinners, but he is ready to hear those who worship him and do his will. 32 Ever since the world began, no one has been able to open the eyes of someone born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he couldn’t have done it.”

34 “You were born a total sinner!” they answered. “Are you trying to teach us?” And they threw him out of the synagogue.

Spiritual Blindness

35 When Jesus heard what had happened, he found the man and asked, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?[c]”

36 The man answered, “Who is he, sir? I want to believe in him.”

37 “You have seen him,” Jesus said, “and he is speaking to you!”

38 “Yes, Lord, I believe!” the man said. And he worshiped Jesus.

39 Then Jesus told him,[d] “I entered this world to render judgment—to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see[e] that they are blind.”

40 Some Pharisees who were standing nearby heard him and asked, “Are you saying we’re blind?”

.

None are so blind as those who REFUSE to see–always for all the ‘right,’ ‘honorable,’ ‘Biblical’ reasons. . . . just like the Religious rulers who had the Bible memorized 2000 years ago.

I say again:

God is Holy!
He is not prissy.

BLESSED ARE THOSE WHO COME IN THE NAME OF THE LORD . . .

Trusting Him, obeying Him, doing the works that He did and enables us to do, by His Spirit.

41 “If you were blind, you wouldn’t be guilty,” Jesus replied. “But you remain guilty because you claim you can see.

1
posted on Friday, March 09, 2012 11:46:36 AM
by Quix

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146 thoughts on “Kenneth Copeland; Tongues As Languages Not Learned etc. 2

  1. I’ll relate again another from a dear friend in the Pacific NW.

    She went on a tour to visit half a dozen or so Native American tribes as a kind of mission outreach.

    At the closing of her time with 3 DIFFERENT tribes, while a tribal leader was praying over their shared time, she was praying quietly in tongues more or less under her breath but loud enough for someone standing nearby to hear her.

    In EACH of those 3 DIFFERENT TRIBES WITH 3 DIFFERENT LANGUAGES, after the ending of the ending prayer time, an old timer in the tribe who’d been standing near my friend, spoke up and asked her “Where did you learn the more eloquent, [archaic] form of our language? You gave a flawless summary of the Gospel story in the old, seldom used, more formal form of our language.”

    My friend had no idea she’d been speaking their language at all. She was just doing her usual of praying in tongues as she had ran out of things to pray in English.

    4
    posted on Friday, March 09, 2012 12:11:17 PM
    by Quix
  2. IT’S NEVER WISE

    TO MEASURE

    GOD ALMIGHTY

    OR

    HIS WAYS

    BY
    MAN’S STANDARDS,
    MAN’S SENSIBILITIES,
    MAN’S ‘LOGIC,’
    MAN’S NOTIONS,
    MAN’S EXPERIENCES,
    MAN’S HABITS,
    MAN’S CULTURE,
    MAN’S DOCTRINES,
    MAN’S DOGMA,
    MAN’S COMFORT ZONES,
    MAN’S BRILLIANCE,
    MAN’S IGNORANCE,
    MAN’S KNOWLEDGE,
    MAN’S ANYTHING.

    One would think Christianity had

    learned

    from the example of the Pharisees.

    Evidently not.

    11
    posted on Friday, March 09, 2012 12:57:34 PM
    by Quix
  3. More so than you are?

    For whatever reason, God still sees fit to use him.

    Evidently God has a different perspective on his flaws, sins, heresies than you do.

    Not that God excuses any such per se . . . just that He ranks things differently in Kenneth’s life than you seem to.

    And/or He has a different schedule for cleaning Kenneth up than you do.

    I don’t know of an pastor who hasn’t taught a raft of junky stuff . . . particularly in their younger more arrogant years or older more arrogant years.

    Arrogance is a super sin in maybe a majority of pulpits. And wherever arrogance is, there will be heresies and stupid assertions.

    IN EVERY DENOMINATION.

    Just because your Pastor’s junky assertions are more to your sensibilities and comfort zones doesn’t make them more right than Kenneth’s.

  4. and restrained.

    Sounds like editorializing according to your personal sensibilities.

    King David’s wife had a comment about his dancing before the Lord in a more ‘restrained’ fashion. She ended up barren for her attitude/critique.

    “Decently and in order” the KJV says. Yeah, chaos is not orderly or helpful.

    The MOST beautiful sounds, music, worship experiences I’ve ever been a part of have been the 3-5 times in my 65 years when in a medium to large group, Holy Spirit led and directed singing in tongues broke out in different parts of the congregations simultaneously. Different melodies; different languages; no one leading but Holy Spirit–EVERY MELODY INTERWEAVING SYMPHONICALLY TO PERFECTION. It may well have been that angels were also adding their voices as the sound was thoroughly Heavenly. And I doubt many had much of a clue as to the specifics Holy Spirit was expressing from their spirit to God–just as Paul notes in I Cor 12-14. Then, when Holy Spirit was finished, it all stopped very close to the same instant.

    Glibly skipping over Paul’s mention about his mind not being enlightened by his praying in tongues is not very . . . honorable in the argument, to me.

    Basically, fantasies and rationalizations don’t hold a candle to Biblical truth and Biblical experiences.

    As to the love aspect . . . some of the nastiest pontifications I’ve experienced in my 65 years have been on the part of folks wailing about a lack of love and with great hostility against tongues.

    Impressive.

    20
    posted on Friday, March 09, 2012 3:22:43 PM
    by Quix
  5. To: Quix

    “For whatever reason, God still sees fit to use him.”

    I have herd stories that during the 50’s healing revival that men would fight over how would speak first or who would speak last, and in all the fist fights and mayhem God still chose to heal during the services.

    22
    posted on Friday, March 09, 2012 4:48:18 PM
    by guitarplayer1953
  6. To: fishtank

    He’s a false teacher, a deceiver and a fraud.

    Its interesting that Jesus received almost the same reception from the Jewish leaders, “theologians” and Experts in the Law and he was the Son of God!

    But when the Pharisees heard about the miracle, they said, “No wonder he can cast out demons. He gets his power from Satan, the prince of demons.” Matthew 12:24

    Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” John 9:16

    Among the crowds there was widespread whispering about him. Some said, “He is a good man.” Others replied, “No, he deceives the people.” John 7:12

    Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue ruler said to the people, “There are six days for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath.” Luke 13:4

    When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is… Luke 7:39

    The Jewish leaders replied, “By our law he ought to die because he called himself the Son of God.” John 19:7

    And the same type of behavior targeted the early Church:

    So they called the apostles back in and commanded them never again to speak or teach in the name of Jesus. Acts 4:18 — Good thing John & Peter listened to God and not the religious leaders.

    I would suggest you leave the judgement to God. Or take the wise words of Gamaliel to heart:

    Then he addressed them: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men…Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” – Acts 5:35, 38-39

    And if that is not enough, consider Jesus’ words to Paul when he asked him why he was persecuting HIM. Jesus takes attacks against the Body of Christ, HIS body personally.

    I don’t care if you like, follow or ever support Kenneth Copeland. But he is a man of God, a faithful teacher of the Word, and a child of God. And as a Christian, which I assume you are, he at least deserves the same love God has for you.

    27
    posted on Friday, March 09, 2012 6:07:38 PM
    by Kandy Atz
  7. What if what you are saying is offensive to God?

    .

    Photobucket

    In view of the Scriptures:

    I Cor 12 KJV:

    10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

    11But all these workes that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will.

    I COR 14:
    15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the Spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

    39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

    1.Romans 8:26
    Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought:
    but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

    2.Romans 8:27

    And He that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    .

    Soooooooo how is it that Holy Spirit praying the perfect prayer about what’s in the heart and mind of the person concerned would offend God The Father or The Son?

    PLEASE EXPLAIN to all of us how it is that

    He {Holy Spirit} that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    Could possibly OFFEND GOD The Father, or God The Son?

    Of course, Biblical wisdom and humility might just note that the question was absurd to begin with.

    30

    posted on Friday, March 09, 2012 6:40:35 PM
    by Quix

  8. Those speaking in tongues understood what they were saying

    Perhaps you tore these verses out of your Bible:

    I Cor 14:
    2For he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him
    ; howbeit in the Spirit he speaks mysteries.

    14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

    15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, AND I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, AND I will sing with the understanding also.

    18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

    19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

    Romans 8:26
    Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

    I Cor 14: 39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid NOT to speak with tongues.

    .

    Now, now. It’s not nice to gnash one’s teeth AT SCRIPTURE.

    32
    posted on Friday, March 09, 2012 7:01:09 PM
    by Quix
  9. To: guitarplayer1953

    I’ve walked away from many a service where pride, the flesh, absurdities, stupidity abounded . . .

    yet God moved.

    Many folks of good heart do stupid things because they don’t know better or aren’t paying attention to their own craziness.

    King David was a worst sort of scoundral when he murdered Bathsheba’s husband etc. Yet he was STILL a man after God’s own heart.

    There’s plenty of mysteries.

    I just choose to take God at His Word and do my best, by His grace to walk it out and into the fabric of my life. He seems to bless that a lot more than not.

  10. Speaking in tongues is of no importance to the mature Christian church.

    I guess you and Jimmy Carter agree that The Apostle Paul didn’t know what he was talking about and you know more about Spiritual truths than Paul did.

    Perhaps if you glue the Scriptures below that you seem to have torn out, God will forgive your tearing them out of the Bible.

    Obviously, Paul was wrong, per your sensibilities, when Pauls wrote IN SCRIPTURE:

    I Cor 12:
    11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will
    .

    21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

    22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

    23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

    24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

    I Cor 12:28:
    28And
    God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues I Cor 14:
    2For he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

    .

    {OH DEAR! what childishness! . . . evidently–according to count-your-change}

    I Cor 14:
    4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; . . .

    .

    {OH DEAR! Can’t have that! What childishness to have Holy Spirit edifying one’s self while praying in tongues! Off with their heads for being sooooooo childish! Harumph!}

    I Cor 14: 15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

    .

    {OH DEAR! Tear ALL Paul’s letters out of the New Testament. He was OBVIOUSLY tooooo childish and immature to have written Scripture! /sarc}

    18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

    .

    {OH DEAR! MORE evidence–Tear ALL Paul’s letters out of the New Testament. He was OBVIOUSLY tooooo childish and immature to have written Scripture! /sarc}

    39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

    .

    {OH DEAR! MORE evidence–Clearly Paul was simply toooo childish to know a living thing about Christianity! Tear ALL Paul’s letters out of the New Testament. He was OBVIOUSLY tooooo childish and immature to have written Scripture! /sarc}

  11. Welllllllll

    Personally, I don’t care how many degrees nor how many awards nor how many decades of teaching are under your belt at how lofty a Univ of Theology.

    Kenneth Copeland asserts that

    Jesus is the Christ;

    That Jesus came in the flesh;

    Was crucified for our sins;

    Rose the third day etc. etc. etc.

    SCRIPTURE says that no one can assert such things by other than Holy Spirit.

    He prays in a Biblical way and sees Biblical results.

    And my close relative’s wife is alive due to Kenneth’s ministry.

    Go ahead and pile your perspective a mile high.

    My close relative won’t care a flip. Like the blind man who saw—my relative has a wife still . . . and his kids and grand kids have a mother and grandmother still.

    Your arguments are merely arguments . . . and along-side of life vs death . . . more than a bit absurdly looking, as well.

    However, by all means, take your gilded buckets of rocks with you to Heaven. God may be very impressed with their gilding and overlook them.

    /sarc

    36
    posted on Friday, March 09, 2012 7:46:20 PM
    by Quix
  12. I hope this is not true for you.

    Most folks I’ve seen with that

    It is not something I seek after and if God sees fit to give it to me than that is His doing, not mine.

    sort of stance . . . sort of are saying to God

    OK, Big Daddy, If you want to unfold my arms, open my heart, mind and spirit with a crowbar and hit me over the head with it–I’ll tolerate it.

    God Holy Spirit is NOT about to do things that way. He’s far too much of a Gentleman.

    Tongues like everything else in life and Christianity are also a matter of FAITH: WHATSOEVER IS NOT OF FAITH, IS SIN.

    AS The Lord walked me through some years ago . . . after the electric goosebumps leave; the anointed aura of electricity leave . . . God asked me how I’d become Saved through Christ’s Blood?

    Of course, by FAITH.

    So, could I have FAITH that Holy Spirit was putting HIS MEANING to whatever sounds I made, or not?

    By His Grace, I could. I haven’t looked back.

  13. To: Kandy Atz

    I have read a majority of his books and compared them with the Word. I have heard and read more unbelief and false teaching while sitting in the pews of mainline churches, and even on this forum, than I have in his work.

    I have also read much of the “heresy hunters” work that contorts and misquotes him with abandon. And frankly, I am shocked that there are “ministries” who feel “called” to do nothing to edify the Body, instead they only attack ministers and ministries. I wonder who called them, and you, to this great task?

    God does not need help to expose heretics and false prophets. Of that, I am quite certain.

    I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY. I’ve found his stuff the same.

    And, I’ve made a similar assessment of the heresy hunters. Their arrogance and prissiness are nauseating and stink to low hell.

  14. To: reaganaut; Kandy Atz

    It’s a tricky business . . .

    However, I’m familiar with roles which folks throw lots of rocks at.

    I have no huge need to throw rocks at your efforts to hold folks to Biblical standards.

    Personally, I extend tons of grace because I need tons of grace.

    I am fine about cautioning people about this or that heretically foolish thing some purported Christian—particularly leaders—may spout or write or fling.

    I’m less fine about consigning them on my perceptions, criteria—even my interpretation of Biblical criteria—to the categories of deliberate and rank evil.

    All the more so when the acknowledge that Christ came in the flesh etc. THAT’S THE BIBLICAL STANDARD.

    Lots of other things are arguable.

    And I’m not very supportive of consigning folks to evil labels over agruable things.

    If they are clearly saying Christ did not come in the flesh;

    If they are clearly ascribing evil things to Holy Spirit

    that’s one thing.

    Lots of other things are arguable and not for me to pronounce heavy handed judgment of others over such arguable things.

    Besides . . . I’ve been wrong . . . more than a time or two.

    I don’t want to be standing before Almighty God and Him asking me why I was so judgmental about a Brother . . . and turn out, from God’s perspective to have been wrong or mostly wrong . . . or right on the letter but wrong on the spirit of an issue.

    No thanks.

    51
    posted on Friday, March 09, 2012 9:15:57 PM
    by Quix
  15. To: reaganaut; Kandy Atz

    Or, put it another way . . .

    I’m a recovering haughty prissy judgmentalist censuring prig. My teen and early 20’s years were something else on such scores. Not about to go back there.

    The long dark nights of the soul God put me through to burn that stuff out are not anything I want to even remember well—and certainly not to have a refresher course in.

  16. To: reaganaut

    Their huge primary errors as with most cults . . .

    They diminish Christ’s Deity.

    They teach salvation by works.

    Either one are about as big a red flag as the Christ coming in the flesh issue.

    53
    posted on Friday, March 09, 2012 9:18:59 PM
    by Quix
  17. To: reaganaut

    Nope.

    Kenneth gives the Glory to God.

    My relative and his wife give the Glory to God.

    I give the Glory to God.

    However, GOD CHOSE to use Kenneth Copeland to heal her through—actually, his wife.

    She had been prayed for by all manner of other Christians and pastors. GOD CHOSE to use Kenneth. Take HIS CHOICE up with HIM.

    54
    posted on Friday, March 09, 2012 9:20:28 PM
    by Quix
  18. To: reaganaut

    Occasionally, God does give SOME folks a Damascus road or burning bush sort of experience.

    NOT MOST folks.

    And, Holy Spirit does not PUSH HIMSELF in a forceful way on someone. He may ‘yell’ STOP when someone is about to step in front of a Mac truck.

    I have NEVER observed him to FORCEFULLY TAKE CONTROL of someone’s speech muscles against their will or reluctance—forcing them to speak in tongues.

    It is more like a dance where HE LEADS—but NOT dragging the person around the dance floor against their will nor with them digging their heels in against the dance.

    Where have I said folks should seek the gifts—particularly over THE GIVER? I haven’t.

    ST PAUL is the one IN SCRIPTURE who exhorted to:

    I Cor 12: KJV
    31But covet earnestly the best gifts: . . .

    NLT:

    31 So you should earnestly desire the most helpful gifts.

    Young’s literal:
    31 and desire earnestly the better gifts; and yet a far excelling way do I shew to you:


    So, if one were to take your assertion as Gospel, one would have to throw out that sort of assertion by St Paul.

    Paul clearly exhorts Believers to seek the better gifts.

    And, Paul clearly exhorts that ALL THE GIFTS are for the edifying and functioning of the NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH.

    ALL OF THEM.

    There are NO trashy Gifts of Holy Spirit.

    NONE.

    Except, seemingly, in the minds & hearts of the naysayers.

    God have mercy.

    57
    posted on Friday, March 09, 2012 9:34:37 PM
    by Quix

  19. BTW, I’ve been writing about this topic off and on on FR for more than 10 years now.

    I can’t recall in all that time, ANYONE dealing much at all, if at all—and certainly not remotely logically or well—with the Scriptures I cite—particularly from I Cor 14.


    I can understand why. Paul’s statements are clear enough that if folks are going to stick to their convictions, they need to minimize, explain away or ignore those Scriptures.

    Not very impressive to observe, however.

  20. To: reaganaut

    That’s how you frame it.

    I haven’t watched nor listened to much of Copeland—certainly in the last 30 years.

    I respect him as the most balanced and Biblical of Kenneth Hagin’s protoge’s. He’s more Biblical, has, imho, more integrity and congruence with Scripture and more Biblical walked out lived out integrity than Hagin’s own son.

    And a lot more humility, imho.

    Kenneth’s heart is not hard to discern. He almost wears it on his sleeve. He’s as raw and Texas plain as can be, in most respects. I like that.

    I respect him. I am thankful he and wife were used OF GOD to bring Christ’s healing power to my relative’s wife.

    No way do I have him on a pedestal. That’s what you’re reading into my posts.

    I don’t mind standing up for him against a pack of raving wolves who don’t sound like they understand clue one about the Biblical verses involved in such things.

    I have told a number of internationally famous ‘Great Men (and women) of God’ some very stern things. And God has confirmed what I’ve said to them with signs following though all of them rebelled against what I said.

    I respect folks calling and anointing and whatever offices and giftings The Lord has layed on them. I don’t respect gross hypocrisy, heresy, foolishness, immorality etc. and am quick to say so.

    I don’t mind standing up for the underdog. On this forum, that seems to include a long list of folks that God seems to think enough of to use mightily.

    I find most of the carping exactly—as in EXACTLY like the carping of the pharisees 2000 years ago. And I hate it maybe in the same ball park to as much as Christ hated it.

    59
    posted on Friday, March 09, 2012 9:44:12 PM
    by Quix

  21. To: reaganaut

    Rather than look at the bigger picture?

    Good grief, man . . . how much of my stuff have you read over the years?

    How on earth could you even think such a thing!

    Sheesh!

    I don’t know anyone on here who has written more about the big picture . . .

    —END TIMES
    —GLOBALISM
    —RAPTURE
    —2ND COMING
    —GREAT TRIBULATION
    —ONE WORLD RELIGION
    —PROPHECIES ABOUT THE PLANET; THE CHURCH; THE NATION; ISRAEL
    —GENERIC GLOBAL EVENS AND TRENDS IMPACTING CHRISTIANITY IN GENERAL
    —MISSIONS IN SPECIFIC AND IN GENERAL

    . . .

    . . .

    SIGH.

    60
    posted on Friday, March 09, 2012 9:47:12 PM
    by Quix
  22. It’s persistently interesting that the pics and gifs are characterized as stupid.

    They seem to quite effectively communicate their points. If they were that stupid, they wouldn’t communicate at all.

    As to insulting . . . they aren’t a fraction as insulting as the Scripture mangling they speak to are insulting to God, His truths and His Word.

    63
    posted on Saturday, March 10, 2012 4:06:48 AM
    by Quix

  23. Perhaps if you changed the fonts and colours some more it would help your understanding or toss in some of the famous pictures but the comments about tearing pages out of the Bible and attempts at ridicule won’t.

    Perhaps you’re right. Perhaps I’d be more accurate if I wrote more about white-washed sepulchres, a brood of vipers, ravening wolves, etc.

    64
    posted on Saturday, March 10, 2012 4:17:18 AM
    by Quix

  24. To: Quix

    I had a book on the Lake miracles I did not remember much on him but just amazing accounts of healing. I do not know this Curry Blake but will check it out. Thank you for ping.

    66
    posted on Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:50:25 AM
    by johngrace

  25. To: johngrace

    I think you’ll like Curry Blake.

    He’s very Texan plain, down to earth, candid, funny, tough, practical, Biblical.

    LUB BRO.

    I hope you and your family are prepared for looming ‘festivities.’

    67
    posted on Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:54:27 AM
    by Quix
  26. Slick rationalized dodge instead of dealing with the Scriptures I posted.

    However, for the font and color allergic or challenged . . . and to leave you less of an excuse . . .

    What if what you are saying is offensive to God?

    In view of the Scriptures:

    I Cor 12 KJV:
    10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

    11But all these workes that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as He will.

    I COR 14:
    15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the Spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

    39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

    1.Romans 8:26
    Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

    2.Romans 8:27

    And He that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the spirit, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    .

    Soooooooo how is it that Holy Spirit praying the perfect prayer about what’s in the heart and mind of the person concerned would offend God The Father or The Son?

    PLEASE EXPLAIN to all of us how it is that

    He {Holy Spirit} that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    Could possibly OFFEND GOD The Father, or God The Son?

    Of course, Biblical wisdom and humility might just note that the question was absurd to begin with.

    69
    posted on Saturday, March 10, 2012 10:51:43 AM
    by Quix
  27. To: Quix; reaganaut

    Nice post. I would like to add some of my experience on the subject.

    The Law of Love is the first and most important commandment. Ministries/pastors/priests that attack other ministries/pastors/priests are the epitome of NOT walking in love. Preach/teach what you believe, not what you are against. You will win a lot more people to Christ.

    It is quite offensive to include Kenneth Copeland in a list with mormons and cults. There is nothing cult-like in anything Kenneth Copeland has ever preached. I say that confidently as I have read literally his entire library, heard many of his tapes/DVDs and seen him teach in person. I am a voracious reader of Christian works and student of the Bible dating back 40+ years. Though my knowledge of the Bible may be better than average, I am always learning more every day by digging in the Word (God’s Wisdom is limitless). The Holy Spirit is a very capable guide when it comes to discerning Truth from error. He has served me well and I am mature enough now to recognize in my spirit when the Word is being taught under a Holy Spirit anointing.

    I will give you my brief testimony. I have been at death’s doorstep, having let satan steal everything in my life through lack of knowledge, and Doctors of theology have patted me on the back and told me that God wants me to suffer for the Lord. Thank God I found Believers and teachers that helped me get rid of that garbage. I am still here, praising God and growing in faith 15 years later. I still bristle at people who blame my Heavenly Father for sickness, poverty and death. God is love. He does not abuse His kids!

    I should have known better considering what I saw growing up. I could write a book about the miracles I witnessed through my parent’s prayers. My mother was a Spirit-filled, tongue talking dynamo for God. Some here would probably call her a heretic. Her prayers in the Spirit and faith in her Heavenly Father delivered me on many occasions from harm. I was just too immature and had too much religion to appreciate God’s gifts and miracles in manifestation. That often happens to those who know religion, but not God. And I almost paid the ultimate price for that ignorance.

    Kenneth Copeland is just one of many ministries that I support that have greatly enhanced my spiritual life. My Mother was a partner, but I thought he was one of those “hucksters on TV.” I was terribly wrong and had to repent of my ignorance and that critical spirit. He is a man of God that sends millions in support of evangelism worldwide. As God directs and blesses me, I support ministries financially and spiritually and I especially enjoy giving to those that are feeding me good spiritual food.

    You will know any ministry by their fruit. I see the fruits of Copeland’s ministry – people getting saved, filled with the Holy Spirit, breakthroughs – financial & physical miracles and most importantly the joy of the Lord in their life.

    I visit some of my friends’ churches and I see dying churches, teaching an empty theology about an impotent god. It boggles my mind that people speak against God’s will to Bless, heal, save and the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and then wonder why their flock is so miserable, broke, sick and dropping like flies.

    Teach the Word! That is what changes lives, gets people healed and spiritually reborn!

    Preach the Word! That will get people free from demonic attacks and pressure.

    Speak/Hear the Word! That is how faith comes and there is nothing impossible to those that believe!

    Share the Word! The Word=Truth=Light=Wisdom=Faith=Love=Jesus!

    Live by the Word! Without the faith that comes from the Word, you can do nothing and you certainly can’t please God! (Hebrews 11:6)

    If you want to preach a dead religion – preach on brother. It is a free country for now. But don’t attack ministries that are truly following God’s command to: heal the sick, cast out devils, be filled with the Holy Spirit, imitate Christ and evangelize the world. My Heavenly Father is always working, and thankfully, there are Christians out there introducing Him into people’s lives and getting them connected to their Savior and Lord.

    One final thought – I take Paul’s description to heart (1 Corinthians 12). We are all parts of the Body of Christ. We are not all hands or eyes. There are teachers, evangelists, pastors and a host of less glamorous roles, none of which are less important to the Body. But when jealousy and strife enter the picture, it is like cancer in the Body. I rejoice in ANYONE that wants to preach or teach the Word. I may not agree with certain church dogma or tradition, but I still respect their role in the Body. If someone has accepted Jesus as their Savior and Lord, they are my brother and sister in Christ! We all need to remember that. If correction or debate is needed, it can be done in love without calling someone a fraud or heretic.

    72
    posted on Saturday, March 10, 2012 4:32:51 PM
    by Kandy Atz

  28. To: Kandy Atz

    ABSOLUTELY INDEED.

    I listened to a bunch of Kenneth’s tapes about 1972.

    I don’t recall hearing anything very alarming. Certainly nothing more heretical than any local preacher might spout.

    I’ve never met a preacher that didn’t have a quirk or 3 about his theology or Biblical interpretation.

    The I Cor 12 stuff is a good point.

    However, the naysayers seem to feed on, breathe, live to EXCLUDE while they wail about feeling excluded because they don’t speak in tongues.

    Gimme a break. Sheesh.

    Ever since I left behind the AoG business about tongues being THE sign of the infilling of Holy Spirit, I’ve been pretty laisez faire about such things . . . EXCEPT where there’s fierce opposition and hostility to what I know to be a clear and valid Holy Spirit manifestation, gifting.

    The double standard stuff I don’t relate well to, at all.

    They usually cry LOVE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT while they are applying the whip to one’s back and one’s body to the rack in the discussion. Sheesh I hate double standards.

    I believe in tough love and am happy to take it whenever remotely fitting.

    However, this business of all the warm and fuzzy love has to flow one and only one direction is nonsense.

    And, as the years have gone by, particularly on FR, I’ve increasingly realized that the whole hostility to tongues and modern operation of the I Cor 12-14 gifts of Holy Spirit is a doctrine of demons from the pit. Cessationism is wholesale from the pit of hell and I’m no longer timid about saying so.

    Why anyone would think Paul was giving ANYTHING ELSE BUT a script for the New Testament era operation of church life in I Corinthians or any of his other letters . . . is utterly MYSTIFYING to me. What idiocy.

    Thanks for the breath of fresh air your post represented.

    I thoroughly agree.

  29. To: reaganaut

    I was making general statements with regard to what traditional religion sometimes teaches and I have experienced. They are usually the first to attack any evangelist or ministry that teaches anything spiritual, faith-based or miraculous. I was not implying you. I apologize if it was taken that way.

    I understand your angst with televangelists and there are probably a few that are out in left field. I have had the same feelings at one point in my life about a few. But this thread was specifically talking about Kenneth Copeland. Attempting to paint him as any kind of cult leader or Mormon-like ministry is HIGHLY offensive and unjustified.

    I know his work well. He does not teach from the Book of Mormon. Nor is he a cult leader. Nor is he attempting to create a religion or denomination. People do not “worship” him in any fashion whatsoever. He does not “twist” the Word or “swindle” anyone. To suggest any similarity to a cult is silly.

    On the fruit from Galatians 5:

    13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

    16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

    19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

    It would appear to me that EVERY Born Again Believer can and should bear fruit of the Spirit. And I would suggest that ministries and churches can collectively bear fruit as well. You may disagree. They are certainly sowing seed and reaping a harvest one way or another.

    I would also suggest, not imply you specifically, but suggest that far too many “heresy hunters” major on Matthew 7:15-20 (wolf in sheep’s clothing). The HHs are so desperate to find the hidden wolves that they never examine the fruit. They tend to totally ignore Galatians 5 as a guide. Even the disciples were miffed that other people were casting out demons in Jesus name. They told them to stop. But Jesus told the disciples “anyone not against us is for us.” (Mark 9 and Luke 9)

    Maybe you just have a problem with anyone who appears on television? I am not sure how that disqualifies someone from teaching/preaching the Word. It is a most effective way of reaching hurting and lost people all over the world.

    I don’t care if you like Kenneth Copeland or not. I get no brownie points defending him, and I am sure he wouldn’t care one way or the other. But please do not relate what he and his ministry do to mormonism or cults. That is ridiculous.

    One can only be “wrong” in a thread so many times and apparently I have hit my limit. May God bless your work with freeing folks from the real cults.

    BTW – You don’t know me either, or what is in my heart or Kenneth Copeland’s heart.

  30. To: Kandy Atz

    INDEED.

    I thoroughly agree.

    And I PRAISE GOD that Kenneth et al walk as much in Holy Spirits gifts, anointing and ministry as they do.

    For all his and Gloria’s flaws, that’s at least greatly more than most of the ministers I’ve been familiar with or heard of in the FROZEN CHOSEN congregations do.

  31. People are more or less free to go on

    accusing Kenneth of operating in the flesh or worse under a demonic ‘counterfeit anointing’ if they wish.

    God knows differently.
    You and I know differently.

    Time will tell.

    We shall see how many gilded buckets of rocks earn awards for their throwers.

    79
    posted on Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:36:23 PM

    by Quix

  32. To: metmom; Alamo-Girl; Kandy Atz; Joya; daniel1212

    A refresher list of Scriptures for those who persistently sound like they’ve functionally ripped them out of their Bibles:

    I Cor 12: 7 A spiritual gift is given to each of us so we can help each other. 8 To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice[b]; to another the same Spirit gives a message of special knowledge.[c] 9 The same Spirit gives great faith to another, and to someone else the one Spirit gives the gift of healing. 10 He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to discern whether a message is from the Spirit of God or from another spirit. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages,[d] while another is given the ability to interpret what is being said. 11 It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.

    .

    Some of us are of the opinion that HOLY SPIRIT simply CANNOT give gifts which are

    Of NO importance to the mature Christian.

    By definition, ALL HOLY SPIRIT DOES AND GIVES IS WORTHWHILE AND IMPORTANT FOR MATURE CHRISTIANS.

    Folks who disagree can argue with Holy Spirit about it.

    I Cor 12:
    18 But our bodies have many parts, and God has put each part just where he wants it. 19 How strange a body would be if it had only one part! 20 Yes, there are many parts, but only one body. 21
    The eye can never say to the hand, “I don’t need you.” The head can’t say to the feet, “I don’t need you.”

    27 All of you together are Christ’s body, and each of you is a part of it. 28 Here are some of the parts God has appointed for the church:

    first are apostles,
    second are prophets,
    third are teachers,
    then those who do miracles,
    those who have the gift of healing,
    those who can help others,
    those who have the gift of leadership,
    those who speak in unknown languages.

    29 Are we all apostles? Are we all prophets? Are we all teachers? Do we all have the power to do miracles? 30 Do we all have the gift of healing? Do we all have the ability to speak in unknown languages? Do we all have the ability to interpret unknown languages? Of course not! 31 So you should earnestly desire the most helpful gifts.

    1 Corinthians 14

    Tongues and Prophecy
    1 Let love be your highest goal! But you should also desire the special abilities
    the Spirit gives—especially the ability to prophesy. 2 For if you have the ability to speak in tongues,[j] you will be talking only to God, since people won’t be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit,[k] but it will all be mysterious. 3 But one who prophesies strengthens others, encourages them, and comforts them. 4 A person who speaks in tongues IS strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church.

    5 I wish you could ALL speak in tongues, but even more I wish you could all prophesy. For prophecy is greater than speaking in tongues, unless someone interprets what you are saying so that the whole church will be strengthened.

    6 Dear brothers and sisters,[l] if I should come to you speaking in an unknown language,[m] how would that help you? But if I bring you a revelation or some special knowledge or prophecy or teaching, that will be helpful. 7 Even lifeless instruments like the flute or the harp must play the notes clearly, or no one will recognize the melody. 8 And if the bugler doesn’t sound a clear call, how will the soldiers know they are being called to battle?

    9 It’s the same for you. If you speak to people in words they don’t understand, how will they know what you are saying? You might as well be talking into empty space.

    10 There are many different languages in the world, and every language has meaning. 11 But if I don’t understand a language, I will be a foreigner to someone who speaks it, and the one who speaks it will be a foreigner to me. 12 And the same is true for you. Since you are so eager to have the special abilities the Spirit gives, seek those that will strengthen the whole church.

    13 So anyone who speaks in tongues should pray also for the ability to interpret what has been said. 14 For if I PRAY IN TONGUES, my spirit is praying, but I don’t understand what I am saying.

    15 Well then, what shall I do? I WILL pray in the spirit,[n] and I will ALSO pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will ALSO sing in words I understand. 16 For if you praise God only in the spirit, how can those who don’t understand you praise God along with you? How can they join you in giving thanks when they don’t understand what you are saying? 17 You WILL BE giving thanks VERY WELL, but it won’t strengthen the people who hear you.

    18 I THANK GOD that I speak in tongues MORE THAN any of you. 19 But in a church meeting I would rather speak five understandable words to help others than ten thousand words in an unknown language.

    20 Dear brothers and sisters, don’t be childish in your understanding of these things. Be innocent as babies when it comes to evil, but be mature in understanding matters of this kind. 21 It is written in the Scriptures[o]:

    “I will speak to my own people
    through strange languages
    and through the lips of foreigners.
    But even then, they will not listen to me,”
    [p] says the LORD.

    22 So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers. 23 Even so, if unbelievers or people who don’t understand these things come into your church meeting and hear everyone speaking in an unknown language, they will think you are crazy. 24 But if all of you are prophesying, and unbelievers or people who don’t understand these things come into your meeting, they will be convicted of sin and judged by what you say. 25 As they listen, their secret thoughts will be exposed, and they will fall to their knees and worship God, declaring, “God is truly here among you.”

    A Call to Orderly Worship 26 Well, my brothers and sisters, let’s summarize. When you meet together, one will sing, another will teach, another will tell some special revelation God has given, one will speak in tongues, and another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must strengthen all of you.

    27 No more than two or three SHOULD speak in tongues. They must speak one at a time, and someone must interpret what they say. 28 But if no one is present who can interpret, they must be silent in your church meeting and speak in tongues to God privately.

    29 Let two or three people prophesy, and let the others evaluate what is said. 30 But if someone is prophesying and another person receives a revelation from the Lord, the one who is speaking must stop. 31 In this way, all who prophesy will have a turn to speak, one after the other, so that everyone will learn and be encouraged. 32 Remember that people who prophesy are in control of their spirit and can take turns. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the meetings of God’s holy people.[q]

    . . . 35 If they have any questions, they should ask their husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in church meetings.[r]

    . . .
    39 So, my dear brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and
    DON’T FORBID speaking in tongues. 40 But be sure that everything is done properly and in order.

    .

    I trust St Paul’s words of SCRIPTURE to be MUCH MORE ACCURATE about God’s priorities for MATURE CHRISTIANS and for churches in the whole of the church era . . . than I do 10,000 personal opinions contrary to said Scripture.

    For those given to throwing away those verses and/or sentences . . . if they would mangle and trash Scripture, there’s no end of mayhem they’ll continue to do with my poor words. That’ll have to be between them and God. I don’t care to contribute unnecessarily to futile dialogue with such perspectives, attitudes and habits.

    91
    posted on Saturday, March 10, 2012 11:07:52 PM
    by Quix
  33. Actually,

    The NEW LIVING TRANSLATION

    is one of the most respected scholarly translations available currently.

    The meaning is the same in a list of the better translations, however.

    95
    posted on Saturday, March 10, 2012 11:37:09 PM
    by Quix

  34. If you wish to start a thread on those issues,

    help yourself.

    Clearly my words of agreement have not registered multiple times before.

    I don’t expect them to register now.


  35. To: Kandy Atz

    I still bristle at people who blame my Heavenly Father for sickness, poverty and death. God is love. He does not abuse His kids!

    PREACH IT!!! You are a breath of fresh air and it’s obvious, you KNOW HIM!

    97
    posted on Saturday, March 10, 2012 11:44:10 PM
    by presently no screen name

  36. To: presently no screen name; Kandy Atz

    I think there are some mysteries . . . particularly with some folks along some of these lines and issues.

    However, on the whole, I think that’s essentially quite thoroughly accurate.

    PRAISE GOD.

    99
    posted on Saturday, March 10, 2012 11:52:24 PM
    by Quix

  37. Help yourselves.

    I don’t know of anyone stopping you.

    Evidently there’s some notches to be gained in one’s halo for throwing rocks at the gifts of Holy Spirit’s operations in this current era.

    Or, even more likely, satan doesn’t appreciate the potency of such gifts of Holy Spirit operating routinely and fittingly in the New Testament era Church life and congregation.

    By all means, start a dozen threads on the fruit of Holy Spirit. More power to you.

    You won’t find me draging a train-load of gilded rocks to throw at such postings on such threads, either.

    112
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 8:35:22 AM
    by Quix

  38. To: Quix

    Does Nana pray in tongues ???

    Yes

    Does Nana have to ???

    No but I get to…

    Has The LORD Jesus Christ ever healed Nana of anything drastic ???

    Yes Cancer and a stroke and other things

    Is Nana thankful to her God ???

    Yes God is amazing and moves Nana to tears of joy…

    Whats God done for Nana lately ???

    Everything..

    116

    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:18:38 AM
    by Tennessee Nana


  39. To: metmom

    I didn’t read where Jesus told anyone they aren’t disciplined enough – so no healing for them.

    The good gift that God gives us is the Holy Spirit

    Amen. “And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, HE who raised Christ from the dead will also GIVE LIFE TO YOUR MORTAL BODIES through His Spirit, who lives in you.”

    I BELIEVE HIM when HE SPEAKS! PRAISE GOD!!

    128
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 1:25:11 PM

    by presently no screen name

  40. To: Tennessee Nana

    VERY WELL PUT.

    PRAISE THE LORD.

    AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

    Did you ever read Charles and Francis Hunter’s book on such things? I forget what it’s called. Wonderful description of their transition from hostile to tongue talking, laying hands on Charismatics! LOL.

    I don’t recall any making that transition who could do more than shake their heads at their ‘old self.’

    129
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 1:26:45 PM
    by Quix

  41. Sooooooooo

    where on this thread

    or where ever on FR

    or where ever anywhere

    have I ever said such a thing, written such a thing or supported such a thing?

    What is WITH all this compulstion to drag every straw dog in the neighborhood into such threads?

    SHEESH!

  42. To: boatbums

    There are Doctors of Theology that teach sickness is a blessing from God. In fact I read a “testimony” on that very subject from a DT posted on this forum not too long ago. You can attend (and I have) mainline denominations and they will preach God does not, or may not heal. If you preach against something, you will NEVER receive it.

    Before looking at scriptures, consider an earthly parent. Would ANY earthly parent give their child cancer or throw them in front of a bus to teach them patience? Would any earthly parent sit by and watch their child suffer if they had the means to stop the pain just so they could endure some perverted form of discipline?

    Please, SERIOUSLY meditate on the last paragraph for a moment.

    And yet that is EXACTLY what people are accusing MY Heavenly Father of doing – child abuse. You don’t think the CREATOR of the universe, a God who IS LOVE, could not provide a way for His children to be healed, made whole and glorify Him in their bodies?

    If its not God’s will for you to be healed and whole, why are Christians going to the doctor? Why does everyone want to be well? Would they not be going against God’s will since they are not “patiently suffering for the Lord”? And if God is “teaching them a lesson”, but they are taking medicine, treatment and enduring pain, do you think anyone would really grow in faith or closer to God when it would appear to most intelligent people that God is a tormenter, not a healer.

    So let’s look at the Bible and answer some of these questions.

    Sin, sickness and death are all related. All entered the World when Adam sinned. All were put away by Jesus’ sacrifice. If we are redeemed from sin, shouldn’t we also be redeemed from sickness and the entire curse? Absolutely!

    And to answer a question before it gets asked, yes, just like someone can sin after being Born Again, someone can get sick. But it is not God’s will and He provides a solution for both. Repent, receive forgiveness and healing.

    Observe:
    Praise the LORD, my soul, and forget not all his benefits—who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases, Psalm 103:2-3 NIV

    Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. Isaiah 53:4-5 NIV

    These are Old Testament prophets looking forward to redemption with the help of the Holy Spirit. For brevity I just listed 2, but you can also see: Exodus 15:26, 23:25, Deut 7:14-15, 28:1-14, 30:19-20, Psalm 91, 107:19-21, 118:7, Isaiah 40:28-31, 41:10, Jeremiah 30:17, Malachi 4:2

    As long as the children of Israel were obedient, they had a covenant of healing. But even when sin brought on the curse of sickness, when they prayed for healing, God would provide an answer. The most obvious example is when the children rebelled and said that “God brought them to the wilderness to die”. Their own words were their downfall as they decreed that they would die and snakes came and bit them (BTW – God did NOT send the snakes). It was their words that brought judgement. God told Moses to build a bronze snake (This is loaded with revelation and Truth) on a pole. Everyone who looked at it, was healed. This is a type of Christ and if you get a revelation, sickness will no longer be a problem. (Numbers 21:4-9, John 3:14-15 – do a study on what Eternal Life or Salvation really means in all of its Glory.)

    I’m skipping lots of Spiritual food, but let’s jump to the earthly ministry of Jesus. John 10:10 is one of the most important verses in the Bible. Until you understand the nature of God and the adversary, you will have difficulty understanding the source of evil and the source of good in this world.

    The thief’s purpose is to steal and kill and destroy. My purpose is to give them a rich and satisfying life. John 10:10 NLT

    These words spoken by Jesus define the struggle of the ages. Satan’s sole purpose is to steal, kill and destroy. This is amplified by numerous passages – the woman bound by satan 18 years for instance. And all the demons Jesus cast out, many of which were causing physical afflictions. I challenge anyone that believes it is God’s will for people to be sick or suffer to learn patience, to find any instance in the life and ministry of Jesus that would affirm that. It does not exist. He had compassion on everyone. There is no telling how many hundreds, if not thousands, were healed, made whole and raised from the dead during his time on earth.

    There is NO record anywhere in the Gospels of Jesus patting people on the head and saying, “suffer for the Lord my son.” Wherever he found faith, he healed. Even when faith was almost nonexistent, love drove him to heal people. If Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, why would that change? Jesus is the Head of the Body of Christ (The Church or all Believers). He does not want a hangnail on the pinky toe of his body. Of that, I am certain!

    You know the events that took place throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John preached: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and curing all who were under the tyranny of the Devil, because God was with Him. — Acts 10:37-38 HCSB

    So now we turn to the post-resurrecton period. Instead of looking to the Word for faith, too many people look to the world and tradition. They see Aunt Ethel who suffered with cancer, but was a Sunday School teacher all her life, and they rationalize away God’s will and provision to heal. If a million people die from cancer, it DOES NOT CHANGE GOD’S WORD. If He says you are healed. YOU ARE HEALED!!! Truth is TRUTH.

    What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. Romans 3:3-4 NIV

    This small passage was one of many breakthroughs for me. God’s Word is Truth. It can be trusted. Even if every theologian on the planet and every dogmatic religion disagrees, I can trust God’s Word. God has made provision for everything you could possibly need and given you the Word so that by faith it is all yours. God will do what He says. But will you trust Him?

    In Deuteronomy 28, the latter half of the chapter describes the curse. It covers every horrible thing satan will bring upon those that disobey including sickness of all types. When I read that portion, I preface each part with: “I am redeemed from…” Because that IS TRUTH.

    Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Galatians 3:13-14 NIV

    It would take a theologian to not understand this passage. We ARE redeemed from everything in Deuteronomy 28:15-68. And have been added to Abraham’s family with full access to ALL the BLESSING (read 1-15 for a few).

    This is getting way too long so let’s skip to some of your questions:

    Job – Read Job 1 so you can see that God did not bring disaster on Job. Satan’s complaint against God was that God had placed a HEDGE OF PROTECTION around Job and blessed everything he did. That’s pretty sweet! Now what brought that hedge down? I am amazed by how many people miss this. Job was operating in fear, not faith. He was continually sacrificing for his kids because he thought they had sinned. (1:4-5; 3:25-26) Job suffered needlessly because instead of trusting God, the source of his success and protection, he was operating in an irrational fear. That opened the door and authorized Satan to wreak havoc. When Job repented, after a whole lot of foolish talk and bad advice from his friends, God stepped back in, replaced the hedge, healed him and blessed him with twice what he had before. There was no glory in suffering. It was done in ignorance and is in the Bible as a cautionary tale as to what fear will allow satan to do in one’s life.

    Moses – I see nowhere in Moses life where he suffered illness. The Children came out of Egypt loaded with wealth and there was not a single person feeble. (Wipe that Cecile B Demille image out of your head of a bunch of sick and crippled folks leaving Egypt.) God supernaturally healed them all for the journey and supllied their daily food. When they sinned and sickness came, see above, God provided and answer – the Bronze snake on a pole. During the plagues, NOTHING touched the Jewish nation. When the angel of death came through, the blood of the lamb on the door protected those inside. Interesting. The Blood protected them from evil.

    He brought out Israel, laden with silver and gold, and from among their tribes no one faltered. Psalm 105:37 NIV

    Be careful to follow every command I am giving you today, so that you may live and increase and may enter and possess the land that the Lord promised on oath to your forefathers. Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the desert these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands. He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord. Your clothes did not wear out and your feet did not swell during these forty years. Know then in your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so the Lord your God disciplines you. Deuteronomy 8:1-5 NIV

    Focus on the next to last verse. If God can keep shoes from falling apart and feet from swelling for a whole nation, don’t you think He could cure whatever aches and pains you might experience? I added the whole passage because I want to address the “humble” and “discipline” as sometimes people make these into sacred cows. Humble, does not mean grovel and beg. It means to reach the conclusion that God is your source. As long as man thinks he can go alone, he is not humble. In the same manner, discipline is what we do to train a child. Do we beat them and make them sick or even cut off their limbs? NO! We teach them with words. We teach them how to receive the best in life and avoid the worst. Your HEAVENLY FATHER is a million times MORE loving than an earthly parent. He will not act out of LOVE towards his children.

    Hebrews 11? The greatest chapter in the Bible on the power of faith? That is what you are going to use to dispute God’s will and way for us to access all His promises and favor? Well alrighty then, let’s go!

    Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. Hebrews 11:1-2 NIV

    We set the table with what faith is. It is the title deed of our possession, our evidence that God will do His part, IF we do ours. Ours is to believe Him because: without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. (Hebrews 11:6 NIV) Notice he REWARDS us, not punish.

    And your question about faith can be answered simply by quoting Paul in the previous chapter: But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Romans 10:16-17

    Lying in bed miserable will not produce faith. Hearing and speaking and meditating on the Word is how faith grows in your spirit, and how you renew your mind to God’s Truth. I could write for hours just on this topic alone, but I must move on and end this.

    Now Paul gives numerous examples of people who were saved from global disaster, had a child past child-bearing years, provided prophecies, were obedient to God’s requests, took a whole nation through the sea that then consumed their pursuers, and “conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies.”

    And yet you want to focus on the “others” who did not have as wonderful of a testimony. Have you ever thought that maybe that was their choice? That just maybe they were disobedient and that God had made a way of escape as He did with Paul with warnings about what would happen if he went to Jerusalem?

    Why would you not want to identify with Enoch? He was in such a perfect relationship with God that he got his own personal rapture! Talk about pleasing God with faith!

    But more importantly, these were Old Testament saints he is talking about. You see the difference at the end.

    These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Hebrews 11:39-40 NIV

    Jesus came, gave his life, suffered the ENTIRE curse for us, took his blood and placed it on the Eternal Mercy Seat, and sat down next to His Father and My Father. We are in a better place because we are spiritually reborn into God’s Family. We are not servants or even friends. We are God’s children, joint-heirs with Christ, Ambassadors of Jesus. We have the Holy Spirit living inside because we are spiritually reborn! NOTHING is impossible if we believe. ALL POWER has been delegated to Believers to overcome ALL the power of the enemy! Through the name of Jesus we can do anything.

    Behold! I have given you authority and power to trample upon serpents and scorpions, and [physical and mental strength and ability] over all the power that the enemy [possesses]; and nothing shall in any way harm you. — Luke 10:19 AMP

    I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. — John 14:12 NIV

    Dear Friend, what about those statements above is not clear. That is Jesus talking to directly to your spirit. Receive that TRUTH with joy!!!

    How dare you mock my Lord and Savior’s will, equating His promises with the fairy godmother or Santa Claus. Take off your religious blinders and receive the GOOD NEWS. Jesus did not come, nor will he receive any glory by us being sick, broke and failures in life. We are charged with glorifying God in our bodies. He wants us well so that we can take His message to a hurting world.

    I apologize for the length. This is a passionate subject because too many people told me God does not heal or work miracles. Since I have experienced just the opposite in my life, I will defend my Heavenly Father vigorously against charges of child abuse. And I certainly don’t want to see anyone suffer needlessly, like I did for far too long, or see their faith destroyed by people telling them that God gets glory from their sickness. That has destroyed more faith and chased more people out of the Church than any other lie from the pit of hell.

    137
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 1:46:57 PM
    by Kandy Atz

  43. To: reaganaut

    LOTS of things are not as they seem . . . good and bad.

    I try to choose my words fairly carefully most of the time.

    I appreciate it when folks seem to notice that.

    138
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 1:47:02 PM
    by Quix

  44. To: reaganaut

    Repent, receive forgiveness and healing. – – – – Wow that is so stupid I don’t know where to begin…

    Pleasant reply. But I did not write it. That was written by James under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Take your complaint to your Heavenly Father, not me.

    Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. James 5:14-16 NIV

    Note the question in verse 15 – is anyone sick. Meditate on why James would ask that question.

    146

    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 2:30:49 PM
    by Kandy Atz

  45. To: reaganaut; Quix

    The Bible says we are not to seek after signs (Matthew 12).

    I assume you mean this:

    Mat 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
    Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

    … and as a point of order, it does not say we are not to seek after signs… It says that a wicked generation/people would seek after signs, and not find ANY, except for the sign of Jonas… One could argue the point to say that if you cannot see signs, you should wonder if you are a part of that ‘generation’ which cannot see anything until they understand the Sign of Jonah… Because there is a common inference which suggests there is a counterpoint to this wicked generation, one which WILL see signs… one which WILL see… No offense meant FRiend – I just see your remark as painting with a very broad brush.

    There is great wealth in Matt 12, if one can cast off one’s presuppositions and SEE what it says… But then, that is probably enough meat to deserve it’s own thread altogether.

    While I am not as vociferous about tongues as my dear friend Quix, I DO rise in defense of the Gifts – ALL OF THEM – It seems that the general consensus of the churches in general (since the middle ages) is that anything that is supernatural is magick and is to be avoided. Ergo, any sign, any wonderment, anything extraordinary, is frowned upon as the work of the devil.

    But IMHO, those who believe as such stand very close to those who have a form of godliness but deny His power. Where is the power and the proof of YHWH AS GOD without manifestation… without prophecies coming true, without healing and such things? Are we to deny His challenges to us… Where He says ‘DO THIS and watch what happens in your life’? That necessitates manifestation.

    A big part of that manifestation is the Gifts, AS PROMISED.

    Now, I have read over and over on this thread about every sort of charlatan which may purport to have a supernatural calling, and how these MUST prove that all such things are false. I have no idea who Copeland is, or what he stands for, but the premise itself I would deny profoundly. I have witnessed and participated in these Gifts, far away from the glare of media lights, and I know them to be true. If there is one thing that my Pentecostal friends have taught me, it is to live in the expectation of miracles, and from that I have been greatly rewarded in both faith and doctrine (not to mention miracles themselves).

    Can these things fall prey to charlatans? certainly so, just as doctrine based, faith based, or liturgically based systems can (and do). Perhaps one could say the consequence in this case is more dire (which I would deny), but if it is, it is only more dire because the truth of it, when found, is so much more powerful. So much more quick and enlivening… Because what is one’s faith if one cannot live every moment in expectation?

    Again, I am speaking in a greater generality than the topic at hand, but it is a subject which intrinsically includes this topic. Remembering that tongues is but the least of the gifts, not only tongues, but where are the rest? It says specifically that these gifts would follow the believers – if these things are not present and able to be witnessed in one’s own life, then I would submit that some fault exists, and it is a big one.

    149
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 2:49:07 PM

    by roamer_1


  46. To: Kandy Atz

    It’s persistently slightly fascinating . . .

    those who most rant about

    “The WORD of God is ENOUGH for me!”

    Then seem to doggedly INSIST on mangling, watering down, rationalizing away, trying to neuter etc.

    The WORD OF GOD!

    Maybe they’re just never satisfied?

    Or is it their Proud Control Phreaque obsessions coming out.

    I think that’s a huge part of why certain personalities seem to have a super hard time “walking in The Spirit.”

    THEY ABJECTLY REFUSE, in any significant sense, to GIVE CONTROL OF THEIR LIVES MORE WHOLESALE TO JESUS!

    Sad.

    164
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 4:45:31 PM
    by Quix
    (

  47. To: roamer_1

    ABSOLUTELY INDEED.

    PRASIE GOD.

    It’s often the overseas missionary who sees more miracles than average. Cultures without so much ‘sophistication’ and ‘finery’ MORE DESPERATLY *NEED* GOD in a long list of ways.

    And, TRUE TO HIS WORD, GOD COMES THROUGH according to His Word.

    BTW, would appreciate an update. Been about to email you for one.

    LUB.

    165
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 4:49:18 PM
    by Quix


  48. To: reaganaut; Quix; boatbums; metmom; caww; Jmouse007

    I never said the gifts didn’t exist. […]

    Then we can agree on that in the least… and that those gifts DO in fact include tongues in some form or fashion. What do you suppose that ‘form or fashion’ to be? Can you define it?

    […] My issue is with those who seek after them as a sign of ‘super spirituality’ and hold over others. That itself is a sin.

    Without agreeing with the assertions against Quix personally, I would agree with the premise wholeheartedly. But the same statement, to be fair, should apply broadly to all the gifts, and not just tongues. Surely there is just as much tendency to take any of the gifts and use them poorly in precisely the same fashion. Or to push the point further, any aspect of faith could be used as poorly. Probably the most common ‘holier than thou’ comes in the form of preachers and church ladies… so much so as to gain credence in comedy skits… My point being stones/glass houses, etc (not pointed at you particularly).

    Whole false systems have been born of that ‘holier than thou’ schtick , as you undoubtedly know in your battles with Mormonism. So why so visceral a reaction to seeing it among those who are charismatic? Rather, one should expect it there just as much as it is everywhere in Christendom.

    God chooses which gifts (and not all of them) to which believers for the edification of the Body.

    I have often thought about how exactly those gifts are received… I do not subscribe to the notion that they are exactly hierarchical, meaning that one MUST obtain tongues to attain any other (albeit those with greater gifts have a tendency to have experienced the lesser ones in my observation). My own experience with tongues did not come first.

    I have never seen edification from speaking in tongues just holier than thou-ness.

    My own experience differs – Tongues – and I am speaking of the ‘gibberish’ that seems to be the offense here – have always come upon me in humility, and with a fair amount of embarrassment, even though I have never spoken in tongues in public, and have always only been standing before YHWH (alone) when they have erupted.

    For me, and YMMV, it happens after I get a very good ‘hook’ when the Spirit comes down… Like my mouth is broadcasting at 28.8 modem speed and my soul is plugged into broadband… My mouth just can’t keep up. What is coming out of my physical face winds up being gibberish. But I know what I am saying in prayer, even though it is far beyond the means of ‘saying’ at all… almost beyond the concept of thought itself.

    I am sorry if I cannot describe the experience very well… It is the best analogy that I have at my disposal. I doubt that I will ever speak in tongues in a public setting, because I never have been overcome by the Spirit in public – For me it takes a ton of prayer and something akin to concentration on praise to get to that point. But neither can I fault those who seem to be able to get there easier than me.

    And you are reading WAY more into that verse than what it says.

    I am not relying wholly upon that verse alone. There is a fascinating bit in Matt 13 after Yeshua is asked why he speaks in parables… and a multitude of comparisons between children of darkness and the children of light – it is the wicked generation that will seek for a sign and not find it – the children of darkness as it were…. it is not saying that the children of light will seek signs and find none.

    If it did, it would go against the preponderance of writings which say the children of light will know, and will see… even knowing the time of the end (like 1 Th 5).

  49. To: CynicalBear

    Welllllllll fancy that . . .

    when folks

    evidently

    CANNOT tell the DIFFERENCE

    between

    RESPONDING TO A POST

    vs

    PINGING SOMEONE to come join a thread . . .

    NO WONDER the rather clear language of I Cor 14 is so unfathomable for some folks.

    Soooo . . . I ask again . . . where did I ping you to join this thread?

    IIRC,

    I DIDN’T.

    187
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:55:54 PM
    by Quix
  50. To: reaganaut

    [roamer_1:] What do you suppose that ‘form or fashion’ to be? Can you define it?

    The bible is not clear on it. Therefore we should not be dogmatic about it.

    Bravo! That is a fairly brave position to take, and I largely agree with it. However, the matter-of-fact way that it is discussed in the scriptures leads me to believe that the initial audience the scriptures were written for knew exactly what the term implied – It bothers me that something so perfectly understood then has been nearly erased in our thought – Again, I come from the position that the Gifts were evident then (thus delivered), and therefore should be evident now. What bugs me about that is the absence of powerful gifts that were matter-of-fact and powerful in that day.

    On a previous thread there was a question: “Why aren’t these charismatics hanging around in hospitals in droves healing people?” The broader concept which went unnoticed in that debate is “Why aren’t CHRISTIANS hanging around in hospitals in droves healing people?”

    Something important has been lost – Can you see that?

    194
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:32:00 PM
    by roamer_1


  51. To: Quix

    I just read a few posts to you. You have the patience of a saint! How many were happy to hear your [relative]’s healing was manifested? All darts at the one God is using.

    198
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:55:10 PM
    by presently no screen name

  52. To: Alamo-Girl; Kandy Atz; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; aposiopetic; aragorn; …

    GENERIC TO THE NAYSAYERS NEAR & FAR AND WIDE.

    We don’t need a ‘prayer language’.

    I’ll let y’all be the one to tell

    ALMIGHTY
    OMNISCIENT
    OMNIPRESENT
    GOD

    that HE made a big mistake.

    Maybe He’ll be thrilled to be corrected by such superior wisdom.

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    1 Corinthians 14

    Tongues and Prophecy

    2 For if you have the ability to speak in tongues,[a] you will be talking only to God, since people won’t be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit,[b] but it will all be mysterious.

    4 A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church.

    14 For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don’t understand what I am saying.

    15 Well then, what shall I do? I WILL PRAY IN THE SPIRIT,[e] and I will ALSO pray in words I understand. I WILL SING IN THE SPIRIT, and I will ALSO sing in words I understand.

    16 For if you praise God only in the spirit, how can those who don’t understand you praise God along with you? How can they join you in giving thanks when they don’t understand what you are saying? 17 You will be giving thanks VERY WELL, but it won’t strengthen the people who hear you.

    18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than any of you.

    A Call to Orderly Worship
    26 Well, my brothers and sisters, let’s summarize.
    When you meet together, one will sing, another will teach, another will tell some special revelation God has given, one WILL speak in tongues, and another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must strengthen all of you.

    39 So, my dear brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and don’t forbid speaking in tongues.

    .

    Scriptures above Quixicated because some seem to have mentally ripped them out of their Bibles for so long, it is as though they are not there.

    Or maybe they are soooooooo uncomfortable and intolerant of those verses and phrases that they have to take a valium when reading I Cor 14.

    Or maybe they REALLY ARE CONVINCED that Apostle Paul needed to submit his manuscript to them for editing before it was included in the Canon.

    Or maybe they REALLY ARE CONVINCED that God just got HIS wires crossed when He transmitted I Corinthians to Paul.

    Or maybe they just can’t handle or refuse to handle God’s way of doing things and so they have to rationalize it all away 12 ways to Sunday so they can sleep more smugly.

    Or maybe they’re just plain wrong and are toooo stubborn, self-righteous and proud about tongues to submit themselves to God and admit it.

    If such Christians allowed satan to rob them of other Biblical truths on the basis of clunky demonstrations of such other Biblical truths in the flawed lives of other believers–they wouldn’t believe a word in the Bible at all.

    May God have mercy.

    199
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 7:06:05 PM
    by Quix
  53. To: reaganaut

    However I have seen holier than thou ness from all types of people in church. And it seems much more rampant among those who view tongues as proof of salvation.

    Now, see… I see that differently… as a charismatic in a very old school Protestant assembly, I have always been on the outside looking in. So perhaps it depends wholly upon one’s particular point of view.

    I can say that I interact with an AOG church for counseling where my Calvinist church dares not to tread… Among them, and among Church of Christ I am treated as a fellow member. I have never run into this “You must speak in tongues to be saved” group you speak of. My credentials among them seem to be sufficient only in that I know what it means to be filled by the Spirit.


  54. To: boatbums

    assuring everybody that he is entirely Biblical in his teachings

    Where does it say Quix is the spokesperson for Copeland? Go to God, he is God’s creation and God KNOWS ALL!

    Something, BTW, that you have not yet even addressed.

    You have THE WORD like Quix does. And if you think Copeland is a fraud, why are you so concerned what he says. Don’t listen/read what he says. Very simple solution to your demands.

    201
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 7:08:17 PM

    by presently no screen name

  55. To: CynicalBear

    Quix, these threads are an open forum. Anyone can respond or make comments. I don’t need your “invitation” nor will I be kept off these threads because of your thin skin.
    193 posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:30:01 PM by CynicalBear

    If you choose to get bogged down in the quibbling about peripheral issues feel free but please don’t try to drag me into it.
    115 posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:06:46 AM by CynicalBear

    Soooooooo . . .

    Once again . . . please show me where I

    DRUG YOU INTO IT?

    BTW, thanks for the personal assault–I appreciate the credit to my Heavenly account.

  56. To: Quix

    one WILL speak in tongues, and another will interpret what is said

    BOTH of these phrases go together.

    If I speak in tongues and other can’t interpret what I have said then I’m not speaking in tongues.

    The idea of speaking in tongues means LANGUAGE, does it not?

    Language means speaking to convey ideas and thoughts. I speak. Another listens. And in doing so, the listener has to understand what I say. Otherwise, there is no communication between the two of us.

    God wouldn’t have me speaking in gibberish as a freak-show. That wouldn’t bring glory to Him. So this is speaking to another to convey a message.

    I don’t see the controversy, here. I believe it did happen as described in the NT. What am I supposed to be all worried about, Quix?

    205
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 7:17:46 PM
    by Pan_Yans Wife

  57. To: roamer_1

    Bravo! That is a fairly brave position to take, and I largely agree with it. However, the matter-of-fact way that it is discussed in the scriptures leads me to believe that the initial audience the scriptures were written for knew exactly what the term implied – It bothers me that something so perfectly understood then has been nearly erased in our thought – Again, I come from the position that the Gifts were evident then (thus delivered), and therefore should be evident now. What bugs me about that is the absence of powerful gifts that were matter-of-fact and powerful in that day.

    On a previous thread there was a question: “Why aren’t these charismatics hanging around in hospitals in droves healing people?” The broader concept which went unnoticed in that debate is “Why aren’t CHRISTIANS hanging around in hospitals in droves healing people?”

    Something important has been lost – Can you see that?

    . PRAISE GOD. It is soooo refreshing to read on such threads someone who is Biblically grounded; spiritually discerning; perceptive, observant, rational; with both feet on the ground.

    I need to sit down and recover from the shock. Oh, I am sitting down. LOL.

    206
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 7:21:33 PM
    by Quix
  58. To: presently no screen name

    Thanks for your kind words.

    INDEED. Right you are.

    Shocking, personally.

    And NOT A SHRED of a hint that any of them consider to the least degree that they could be in the least degree even slightly wrong.

    There’s a ton of stuff demonstrated by all manner of Christians that I just put on a shelf and wait for God to clarify, sort out, confirm, disconfirm, whatever. I feel no need to get on my high horse about it in some sort of haughty judgmental prissiness.

    As King David said . . . don’t stop them, perhaps God has sent them . . . LOL.

    However, when it comes to God operating in this era, I will be fiercely in favor of HIS DOINGS AND HIS WORD ON THE MATTER.

    Like no other era before—these END TIMES WILL REQUIRE IT—likely for mere survival—much more so OVERCOMING AND DOING THE ENEMY IN.

  59. To: roamer_1

    Actually,

    Now that I ponder it . . .

    I don’t recall the kinds of off base teachings and behaviors the naysayers rant so seemingly compulsively about . . . in any of the Charismatic, Pentecostal churches I’ve been a part of . . . for . . . oh, the last

    40 years.

    Evidently some folks have been hanging around in all the ‘wrong’ places.

    210
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 7:32:49 PM
    by Quix

  60. To: Quix

    As far as the hospitals go, it only sounds good. I heard of someone going into a hospital or nursing home, I forget. And the guy was in the wheelchair and ending up chasing the guy who came in peace out of the place. The wheelchair bound guy said he was suffering for The Lord and who is he to rob him of that. Amazing.

    Lake closed two hospitals because he believed for so many healings outside the hospitals weren’t needed.

    211
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 7:35:45 PM
    by presently no screen name


  61. Absolutely indeed.

    Something else I’ve not seen at all . . .

    Lots of folks mature and get wiser with age. They recant a lot of their foolish statements earlier.

    I’d guesstimate that

    NOT A SINGLE NAYSAYER ON THIS THREAD HAS CHECKED KENNETH COPELAND’S MINISTRY OR HIM PERSONALLY OR HIS STAFF TO SEE

    IF

    He’s recanted any of his foolish statements, or not.

    And, I am also fairly certain . . . that every last naysayer on this thread would be terminally embarrassed

    IF

    ALL THEIR FOOLISH STATEMENTS over their lifetimes were publically posted, published and spewed 24/7 from the media.

    212
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 7:36:51 PM
    by Quix

  62. To: Pan_Yans Wife

    If I speak in tongues and other can’t interpret what I have said then I’m not speaking in tongues.

    That may be your personal interpretation and inference.

    However, SCRIPTURE DOES NOT SAY THAT!

    At most Scripture would say that the person was out of order to speak in tongues PUBLICALLY without and interpreter. !DOH!

    And in terms of praying in tongues alone to God, your assertion has no application whatsoever.

  63. Quix,

    If Copeland did make foolish statements in the past, he turned people away from him. And when he did that, people did not come back. That’s the nature of the television ministry where the words and deeds of the minister are noted and spread far and wide. The ministry welcomes that type of exposure and scrutiny because it is on television. A larger audience invites more criticism. Copeland knows this.

    I doubt he sits and worries about his detractors because he counts the numbers of the faithful, instead.

    I wouldn’t worry too much about his feelings and if he’s concerned. I’d worry more about the overall message that his congregation is getting from him. It is the message that matters the most. As long as they adhere to the gospel then all is well.

    Isn’t that true?

    219

    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 7:49:50 PM
    by Pan_Yans Wife


  64. To: Quix

    I just put on a shelf and wait for God to clarify, sort out, confirm, disconfirm, whatever.

    Exactly. What we didn’t understand last year, we understand now. We are always learning/growing. At least, some are.

    I feel no need to get on my high horse about it in some sort of haughty judgmental prissiness.

    Yep. Everyone else is wrong but them. The highty haughty holy crowd who has a religious spirit.

    “I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in Me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.”

    Quix, do you think we will get to do what Jesus is talking about here? If Copeland or anyone else does these greater things, we need to get our own website! LOL!!

    Praise God for His Word.

    221
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 7:50:34 PM
    by presently no screen name


  65. To: presently no screen name

    I don’t think the

    REALLY

    GREATER THINGS THAN THESE

    times have actually begun yet. Maybe some of the preliminaries.

    I think once the looming satanic global government has more overt control and is persecuting authentic Believers more, then I think God will loose Holy Spirit’s miraculous demonstartions and angelic interventions as never before.

    Persecution seems to always correlate with more spiritual clout.

    223

    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 7:54:39 PM
    by Quix


  66. To: Pan_Yans Wife

    If I speak in tongues and other can’t interpret what I have said then I’m not speaking in tongues.

    That may be your personal interpretation and inference.

    However, SCRIPTURE DOES NOT SAY THAT!

    At most Scripture would say that the person was out of order to speak in tongues PUBLICALLY without and interpreter. !DOH!

    And in terms of praying in tongues alone to God, your assertion has no application whatsoever.

    224
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 7:57:42 PM
    by Quix
  67. How true. They want perfection and yet..LOL!

    I haven’t been to his site yet but still rejoicing for your cousin. That is result of FAITH IN ACTION.

    Indeed. If Copeland or anyone else waited until they had it all together, they wouldn’t step out in faith because we will never get it all together here.

    236
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:03:35 PM
    by presently no screen name


  68. To: presently no screen name; roamer_1; Kandy Atz

    ABSOLUTELY INDEED.

    I was thinking in the shower . . . I know . . . all wet anyway . . .

    turns out to be a more meditative place for me. LOL.

    One of the things that hasn’t been discussed and won’t likely be very rationally nor fair-mindedly by the naysayers . . .

    I think one of the most IMPORTANT functions of tongues is to connect our spirit more directly to God’s Spirit

    without all the mental noise from our intellectual sphere.

    I think Scripture alludes to that without spelling it out explicitly.

    I just know that MANY times in my 65 years,

    when I’ve been MOST BOUND UP IN MY MENTAL UNDERWEAR . . .

    God has used praying in tongues as a way to break through all the mental noise and double binds with a greater initmacy with Him; a greater clarity from Him; a greater sense of direction, balance etc.

    Similarly, I wasn’t often very stuck when counseling individuals, couples or families—by God’s mercy—He trained me well. However, the few times I was . . . praying quietly under my breath in tongues persistently facilitated an insight or line of query from Holy Spirit that brought immediate breakthrough for the clients.

    PRAISE GOD FOR HIS FAITHFULNESS.


  69. To: caww

    Interesting.

    Y’all come onto the other thread with guns blazing from y’all’s first posts . . .

    and similarly probably on every other thread the topic has come up on.

    The hostility is ALWAYS THERE in spades with great haughtiness, self-righteousness, prissiness etc. etc. etc. to the max.

    Yet it’s always the fault of those few of us who support Paul’s Scriptures on the matter that ‘tarnishes’ the ‘discussion.’

    Photobucket

    Photobucket .

    If y’all think I’m going to be all wimpy and milque toasty sweetness and shallow light on the topic, that’ll be a long wait.


  70. To: reaganaut

    Whoops! hit the ‘send’ too early… allow me another shot at that last one:

    Again you are reading much more into that verse than what is there. What you claim is not what is stated.

    Then break it down for me… tell me what it does say. What I get out of it is that the wicked will look for a sign and find nothing except the sign of Jonah (three days and three nights)

    This is exactly the kind of thing that I object to among some Charismatics. They create this spiritual hobby around tongues and place it on a much higher plane than the other gifts when Paul himself places it lower than the other gifts.

    I didn’t take up the verse to defend tongues at all – except to question your interpretation thereof which is to say that WE (all of us) should not seek after signs. It certainly doesn’t say that. If that is what it says, then all of the prophets are for naught.

    I’m ambivalent on tongues other than what I have seen and the results of those who focus on it and in that way I see it as leading people to sin rather than to praise God.

    I am as well – albeit that I seem to have a broader experience than you. At least a different one. Those that I know who speak in tongues would probably attest that one cannot even get to a spiritual filling (which is needful for true tongues) without being on the humility plane, and all caught up on confessing… I don’t see anything in the charismatic folks that isn’t in the general breadth of Christianity (which is what I was pointing to). Theres good bad and ugly pretty much everywhere.

    I’m for moderation in all things, and sadly, this thread is proof that some Charismatics are not being moderate in their assertions relating to tongues.

    That is somewhat to be expected… I don’t think most folks understand how Pentecostals are treated here and elsewhere. One can only be treated as the redheaded stepchild for so long…

    I generally avoid these threads, and am appalled at the way I have been insulted and accused because I automatically do not seek after speaking in tongues and do not believe any Christian should as well as pointing out that people are putting a televangelist on a pedestal whose teachings are not biblical in at least some areas.

    I am sorry you feel that way, and I hope I have not contributed to that feeling. If I did, I didn’t mean to. My thing is more about the idea that we are not to look for signs (which I reject outright), and the whole tenor of those who suggest that the gifts have passed on. I didn’t mean to pick on you. 🙂


  71. To: metmom; presently no screen name; Kandy Atz

    Ahhhhhhhh

    sooooooooo

    Brittle sensibilities about how WRONG GOD AND PAUL WERE in I Cor 14

    trump Scripture?!?

    Got it.

    250
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:46:32 PM
    by Quix

  72. To: Quix

    praying quietly under my breath in tongues persistently facilitated an insight or line of query from Holy Spirit that brought immediate breakthrough for the clients.

    That’s our God! At times we have no idea what we need and, of course, what to pray for but the Spirit does. He knows the end from the beginning. And your clients we blessed, also.

    “Then God said to him: “Because you have asked this thing, and have not asked long life for yourself, nor have asked riches for yourself, nor have asked the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself understanding to discern justice,

    behold, I have done according to your words; see, I have given you a wise and understanding heart, so that there has not been anyone like you before you, nor shall any like you arise after you.”

    256
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 9:52:15 PM
    by presently no screen name

  73. To: presently no screen name

    AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

    I admit that some folks in my pervue decades ago tended to be about as prissy about tongues in a haughty self-righteous way as virtually ALL of the naysayers have been in the 40 years since.

    In those 40 years, it has virtually ALWAYS been the naysayers who have been prissy, self-righteous, haughty and the tongues speakers who’ve been the most humble, sacrificial, servant-hearted, Biblically knowledgeable and wise.

    I hadn’t realized that until your post. Interesting reflection.

    Thanks.

  74. To: caww

    For the record . . .

    the naysayers are welcome to go chase a whole flock of ducks.

    I’d be delighted to have a robust discussion of the topics more or less only with folks who have experienced such in a positive way.

    I did NOT post this thread hoping IN THE LEAST to have another futile pile of efforts trying to have a genuine discussion with the naysayers. For all my flaws, I’m not THAT STUPID.

    I posted the thread IN SPITE OF the naysayers and their Scripture shredding perspectives.

    I felt an obligation and duty to The Lord to note the positive things to contrast with the naysayer’s comments routinely on such scores.

    Of course, I expected the naysayers moths to the flame compulsions on this thread.

    However, I’ve mostly avoided the back and forth exchanges on the same innane UNBIBLICAL statements of the naysayers that are chronically posted.

    I’ve tried to limit my responses to them to newer aspects or items that I haven’t commented on before.

    LOL.


  75. To: metmom

    And what about all the poor people who are being duped by Copeland? Just let them go on being deceived?

    Do you know they are being duped? Did they tell you or are you spreading what you heard. What are we taught about gossip? Those poor people, as you claim, can walk out if they feel they are being deceived. They have the Word.

    Who cares about them anyway? They don’t have to listen to him.

    Hopefully, they listen to God if they care about themselves.

    Anyone who claims to speak for God and claims to proclaim the gospel OUGHT to be and come under tremendous scrutiny to protect others from being led astray by them.

    Yeah, like those on this thread?

    270
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 10:09:04 PM
    by presently no screen name

  76. To: Quix

    It’s often the overseas missionary who sees more miracles than average. Cultures without so much ‘sophistication’ and ‘finery’ MORE DESPERATLY *NEED* GOD in a long list of ways.

    That is what I hear too – I have thought for some time now that technology defines the false miracles predicted in the prophets. it is much easier for affluent western countries to rely on doctors and engineers than to keep their eyes on YHWH.

    BTW, would appreciate an update. Been about to email you for one.

    meh. nothing much to say… the framers are out- My little hovel in the woods looks like a house again. fighting my way through electrical and plumbing now… by next week it will start flying fast… sheetrock, tape & texture, paint… the week after that will be cabinets, doors, case & base… then I will be waiting on the floor guys (gonna farm that out… too old and decrepit to run a carpet kicker 😛

    272
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 10:12:13 PM
    by roamer_1


  77. I encourage you to take that question up with GOD ALMIGHTY.

    And, I’ll still let y’all be the one to tell

    ALMIGHTY
    OMNISCIENT
    OMNIPRESENT
    GOD

    that HE made a big mistake.

    Maybe He’ll be thrilled to be corrected by such superior wisdom.

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    1 Corinthians 14

    Tongues and Prophecy

    2 For if you have the ability to speak in tongues,[a] you will be talking only to God, since people won’t be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit,[b] but it will all be mysterious.

    4 A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church.

    14 For if I pray in tongues, my spirit is praying, but I don’t understand what I am saying.

    15 Well then, what shall I do? I WILL PRAY IN THE SPIRIT,[e] and I will ALSO pray in words I understand. I WILL SING IN THE SPIRIT, and I will ALSO sing in words I understand.

    16 For if you praise God only in the spirit, how can those who don’t understand you praise God along with you? How can they join you in giving thanks when they don’t understand what you are saying? 17 You will be giving thanks VERY WELL, but it won’t strengthen the people who hear you.

    18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than any of you.

    A Call to Orderly Worship
    26 Well, my brothers and sisters, let’s summarize.
    When you meet together, one will sing, another will teach, another will tell some special revelation God has given, one WILL speak in tongues, and another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must strengthen all of you.

    39 So, my dear brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and don’t forbid speaking in tongues.

    .

    Scriptures above Quixicated because some seem to have mentally ripped them out of their Bibles for so long, it is as though they are not there.

    Or maybe they are soooooooo uncomfortable and intolerant of those verses and phrases that they have to take a valium when reading I Cor 14.

    Or maybe they REALLY ARE CONVINCED that Apostle Paul needed to submit his manuscript to them for editing before it was included in the Canon.

    Or maybe they REALLY ARE CONVINCED that God just got HIS wires crossed when He transmitted I Corinthians to Paul.

    Or maybe they just can’t handle or refuse to handle God’s way of doing things and so they have to rationalize it all away 12 ways to Sunday so they can sleep more smugly.

    Or maybe they’re just plain wrong and are toooo stubborn, self-righteous and proud about tongues to submit themselves to God and admit it.

    If such Christians allowed satan to rob them of other Biblical truths on the basis of clunky demonstrations of such other Biblical truths in the flawed lives of other believers–they wouldn’t believe a word in the Bible at all.

    May God have mercy.

    273
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 10:14:49 PM
    by Quix
  78. To: Quix

    I know. All they have to do is not believe to speak in it. But they tell you, you can’t. LOL!!! Haughty indeed.

    Let’s see. Ridicule the ministry God used to heal your cousin. And then ridicule the use of tongues. Then they ridicule you. Because ‘they’ live by The Word. LOL!

    280
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 10:47:15 PM
    by presently no screen name

  79. To: metmom; presently no screen name

    Given

    that you don’t seem thrilled with Kenneth’s interpretation of such a Scripture:

    Please give us YOUR interpretation.

    @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

    John 10:33-35

    King James Version (KJV)

    33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

    34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

    35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

    283
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 10:55:18 PM
    by Quix


  80. To: presently no screen name

    I never have found

    linear logic

    to be the strong suit of naysayers in general . . . not in Christianity and not, really, in much of any sphere.

    Emotionality tends to rule the day.

    Which is a real paradox given tongues naysayers’ hostility to

    “All that emotionalism stuff.”

    Sigh.

  81. Y’all sure make it easier to understand naysayer’s mangling of Scripture given

    how much y’all

    —mangle my words;
    —put erroneous words in my fingers;
    —put erroneous thoughts in my head;
    —put erroneous motivations in my heart;

    yadda yadda yadda

    Impressive.


  82. To: presently no screen name

    Has it ever appeared to you . . .

    that most naysayers seem to live in a very

    —narrow
    —rigid
    —almost totally binary—all black/white world?

    They seem to have little awareness of so many continuums in so much of life where there’s an infinite number of points from A to Z.

    I guess that makes it easier to jump from

    my not inviting folks

    to the conclusion that I wanted to actively forbid such in some sort of authoritarian nonsense.

    Sheesh what silliness.

    Perhaps it’s inconceivable to some folks that I set out to post the truth as I saw it and let the chips fall where they may with whatever responses occurred . . . hopefully without me getting drug very far into the chronic futile go arounds over the same straw dogs always proffered when such topics arise.

    Seems like a lot of truths in this ball park just do not compute for such folks.


  83. To: Quix

    Definitely emotionalism is here! And it started because your cousin was healed.

    “Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,” he said. “Be clean!” And immediately the leprosy left him.”

    “Then Jesus ordered him, “Don’t tell anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them.”

    Oh, no. Maybe we goofed. LOL!!

    294
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:18:12 PM
    by presently no screen name


  84. To: presently no screen name

    Wellllll

    My relative’s wife is not about to give her healing back! LOL.

    Have you noticed something else . . .

    IIRC, I ***try*** to say MOST things somewhat tentatively unless I KNOW them more or less explicitly because of abundantly clear Scriptural language and/or extremely solid personal experience that God has confirme is of Him.

    There’s soooo many Scriptural issues that are arguable. And I TRY and avoid a dogmatic stance on them.

    Yet, naysayers chronically sound like they KNOW 1,000% EXACTLY AND PRECISELY WHAT EVERY word and nuance on a Biblical issue means to the nth degree.

    Great humility there.

    /sarc


  85. To: caww

    HALLELUJAH! HALLELUJAH! HALLELUJAH!
    AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

    !ABSOLUTELY INDEED!
    BY ALL MEANS!
    FOLKS SHOULD DO
    WHAT SEEMS RIGHT TO THEM
    VS
    WHAT SEEMS WRONG!
    !LOL!
    THX THX!
    GODSPEED!
    May God draw you ever closer to Himself
    And to His perfect comprehensive truths
    and revelations that would most bless
    your walk with Him.


  86. To: Quix
    naysayers chronically sound like they KNOW 1,000% EXACTLY AND PRECISELY WHAT EVERY word and nuance on a Biblical issue means to the nth degree.

    Accused other of saying they are gods, yet they ACT like gods. “We know in part…..”

    “The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know.” 1 Cor 8:2

    What happens when they get to that part. LOL!!!!
    304 posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:41:11 PM by presently no screen name

  87. To: boatbums

    Welllllll

    Thanks for documenting that I did

    NOT SAY

    anyone was

    “ENTIRELY BIBLICAL.”

    That’s just not a phrase I’m likely to use and certainly not to use casually, thoughtlessly.

    I don’t even say that of my most beloved pastors over my 65 year life! LOL.

    And, as hard as I try to be so, I’d probably not even say that about myself.

    In short, BB, I don’t think

    you

    “get it.”


  88. To: boatbums

    Welllllll

    Thanks for documenting that I did

    NOT SAY

    anyone was

    “ENTIRELY BIBLICAL.”

    That’s just not a phrase I’m likely to use and certainly not to use casually, thoughtlessly.

    I don’t even say that of my most beloved pastors over my 65 year life! LOL.

    And, as hard as I try to be so, I’d probably not even say that about myself.

    In short, BB, I don’t think

    you

    “get it.”


  89. To: boatbums

    HINT:

    “Anointedly put” is NOT EQUAL to “entirely Biblical.”

    In my dictionary . . .

    “entirely Biblical” = more or less “100% Biblical.”

    I haven’t ran into ANY mortals I have observed reach that level of Biblical purity. I don’t think there are any this side of eternity.

    Thanks for proving so extensively yet again that y’all have relatively little clue about what I write.

    307
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:44:38 PM
    by Quix

  90. To: Quix

    That is true. You say one thing and they take it another. I’ve seen it here a few times just on this thread and now once, again.

    Quix, are you speaking in tongues here. If so, I must be the interpreter because I understand you. LOL!!!!!!

    308
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:51:10 PM

    by presently no screen name


  91. To: presently no screen name

    INDEED.

    LOL.

    THX THX.

    BTW,

    I just got this interesting link.

    . . . will post elsewhere or in a FREEPMAIL . . . quake prediction . . . MARK OF THE BEAST etc.

    310
    posted on Sunday, March 11, 2012 11:56:57 PM
    by Quix


  92. To: boatbums

    SURE.

    I’ve experienced BOTH.

    However, normally, when I’m mystified or stumped, I’ve already prayed all I knew to pray in English.

    313
    posted on Monday, March 12, 2012 12:06:11 AM
    by Quix


  93. To: presently no screen name

    LOL.

    You got a big cheer and a laugh from my housemate on that one.

    By all means, thanks for interpreting for me.

    My wife used to have to do that a lot. LOL.

    Housemate sometimes does that.

    For some reason I rarely had that problem in counseling or in teaching. But often in other contexts. LOL.

    315
    posted on Monday, March 12, 2012 12:09:56 AM
    by Quix
    (


  94. To: Quix

    Well I understand them .

    One accuses of you dragging them in, someone else says it open so they can post (like you said they couldn’t LOL), another says you are haughty, another accuses you saying biblical perfected when you say anointed. I could go on but I think God made have confused the enemy here.

    LOL!!!

    318
    posted on Monday, March 12, 2012 12:19:44 AM
    by presently no screen name


  95. To: boatbums

    Wrong.

    You ascribed YOUR inferences and assumptions about the words I used

    to me.

    Not cool.

    And even when I corrected you above, you still deny me what

    I MEANT WITH *MY* WORDS.

    Incredible.


  96. To: boatbums

    And why are you so quick to blame God for murder? Its almost like you relish the opportunity to impugn your Heavenly Father who says He is love and does not change. If we take Numbers 21:5-7 at face value we have God committing evil. Do we really want to make that accusation?

    NOW I ASK YOU TO REACH DOWN DEEP IN YOUR SPIRIT ON THIS – WHAT ACTUALLY CAUSED THE SNAKES TO ATTACK?

    Now tell them this: ‘As surely as I live, declares the LORD, I will do to you the very things I heard you say. Numbers 14:28 NLT

    In our vernacular, God told them they would get whatever they said. Can we agree to that? It was a warning. They were put on notice that their words were stout against the Lord and they would face the consequences of their negative words.

    The concept also runs through the Bible as people sin, speak unbelief, act in fear, there are negative consequences. When people obey, talk/act faith, there is blessing. I am sure you’ve also heard what you sow is what you reap, which is a similar law that runs throughout the Word.

    So here we have the entire nation grumbling and prophesying their own doom. They were “snared by their words.”

    But the people grew impatient on the way; they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? Numbers 21:4-5 NIV

    Immediately snakes came, and their words had manifest. Some died. But immediately when they cried out to Moses who interceded for them, God provided the bronze snake on a pole, and all who looked at it lived. Now if God sent the snakes and wanted everyone to die, why was the bronze snake solution given so quickly. Meditate on this for a moment before a knee jerk response.

    Instead of digging for scraps, trying to find anything to accuse God of evil, why not look for proof and evidence that proves that God is good? That He does not change? I guarantee you will see a whole lot more evidence of God’s love and grace than any evil.

    Jesus said that he did the works of his Father. And that if you have seen him, you have seen the Father. Did Jesus ever kill anyone, or make anyone sick? It almost seems like a totally different God in the OT compared to the New. But I thought God does NOT change?

    So now we have a quandary. If Jesus is God who changes not, then just maybe the writers or possibly translators in the Old Testament missed it. Maybe instead of sent, it should be allowed? Maybe the OT writers saw God differently as us who are blessed with living and knowing God more perfectly through Jesus and the indwelling Holy Spirit. I am not saying this definitively, but we do have problem. We have God committing murder and violating His own nature. Are you willing to accept that as truth?

    Are you willing to accuse God of being a liar and a murderer?

    I’m not willing to make that accusation. If God says He is love and changes not, I am going to believe Him. I am going to prayerfully meditate on hard passages when it appears God violates His nature or Word. I am going to trust that the Holy Spirit will reveal truth and it will agree with the Word that says God is love and changes not. This will make me love and trust God even more, knowing that His Word is solid and cannot be broken, strengthening my faith in Him.

    327
    posted on Monday, March 12, 2012 2:39:04 AM
    by Kandy Atz


  97. To: Quix

    I know missionaries that have been in Brazil that preached in english and the hearers heard the words in Brazillian Portuguese and were saved.

    God works in ways we do not understand

    thanks for the post Quix

    I enjoy reading your thoughts.

    332
    posted on Monday, March 12, 2012 8:08:11 AM

    by Rightly Biased


  98. To: reaganaut

    and am appalled at the way I have been insulted and accused because I automatically do not seek after speaking in tongues I am disgusted by some of the posters on this thread who claim to be believers yet are twisting scripture, focusing on minutae, attacking people’s faith because they don’t speak in tongues or have an illness.

    Can you point out the posts here where there are attacks on those who don’t speak in tongues? So far all I’ve seen HERE is one being attacked because they DO. And who insulted/attacked you because you do not speak in tongues? Was it here or elsewhere?

    I ask because in all my years I have never even heard the term ‘seek after tongues’ or anyone being attacked/insulted because of it – either way. It just does not exist in the real world. I have no idea what circles you/anyone else live in – I never heard the term/or heard anyone attacked for it – until I came here. Along with the term DEMAND miracles. Sounds to me someone is either making it up or they surround themselves with a bunch of nosy bodies. How would anyone know if someone else speaks in tongues unless they ask?

    What I have seen, and only here, is one being attacked/insulted because they DO, not don’t. IMO, if one does or doesn’t, it doesn’t matter – what’s the ruckus about? Not sure why some are concerned what others do/don’t do. Everyone comparing themselves among themselves.

    “We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise”. 2 Cor 10:12

    337
    posted on Monday, March 12, 2012 9:07:55 AM
    by presently no screen name

  99. To: metmom

    I’m beginning to think we aren’t on the same planet and certainly not speaking the same language.

    And I’m NOT even typing ‘in tongues.’

    339
    posted on Monday, March 12, 2012 9:11:10 AM

    by Quix


  100. To: Rightly Biased; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; GiovannaNicoletta; …

    PRAISE GOD.

    I’ve long thought that

    GOD could EASILY do it EITHER WAY and probably did use both phenomena—speaking a language not learned AND hearers hearing their own language from a language they hadn’t learned.

    I think I’m going to start compiling these examples from FREEPERS in a Word doc.

    ANYONE personally experiencing or personally knowing of reliable reports, please let me know.

    BTW, Thanks tons for your kind words. It’s a mucky swamp full of quicksand. Alas, no one else seems to want to hotch scotch across the backs of the alligators.

    And, Holy Spirit and the spiritual truths involved ARE worth it.

    344
    posted on Monday, March 12, 2012 9:21:39 AM
    by Quix

  101. INDEED.

    The death grip on bitterness, resentment, vendettas against perceived and/or real slights and insults from evidently years and years ago as well as however recent . . . seems to be thicker than ice on the North Slope in January.

    And yet we’re supposed to kowtow, kiss toes, smile submissively etc. to the poison spewed from all that bitterness, resentment and vendetta mentality stuff.

    Not planning to comply on my watch.


  102. .
    [interesting–just adding a size +1 to the html resulted in corbel being changed above to algerian?!]
    .

    To: presently no screen name; Joya; roamer_1; marbren

    Photobucket

    Photobucket

    It’s always fascinating to observe the TYPES OF FOLKS

    who seem to be convinced that

    I’m INTERESTED in credibility with them!

  103. To: narses

    I’ve usually observed that

    brazenly wrong assumptions obviously contrary to reality and facts

    are a consistently reliable route

    AWAY from truth

    instead of TO truth.


  104. They are the forerunners of the modern day charismatic movement.

    Photobucket

    .

    ACTUALLY,
    They appear to be
    much more akin to
    the critics of
    the Charismatic movement
    BY FAR!
    Their operational spirit appears to be the same.
    Their attitudes appear to be the same.
    Their blaming appears to be the same.
    Their word choices appear to be greatly the same or similar.
    Their tones appear to be the same.
    Their stances appear to be the same.
    Their rationalizations appear to be the same.
    Their brittleness appears to be the same.
    Their prissy-ness appears to be the same.

    Photobucket

    Photobucket

    Photobucket

    Photobucket

    375
    posted on Monday, March 12, 2012 3:46:02 PM
    by Quix

    FR post #375

  105. To: metmom

    If God through the ministry of the Holy Spirit dwells inside me, I would think as my Guide and Counselor, He would know the answer to difficult questions. That is WHY we are given the HS in the first place, to lead us into all TRUTH which agrees with the Word since they are one and the same. BTW – Do you think God is bound by His own Word since he watches over it to perform it?

    But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. John 16:13 NIV

    I don’t know about you, but I was cleansed of all unrighteous and spiritually (the heart) reborn when I asked Jesus into my life. If you have missed that Truth I refer you to the following:

    And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. Ezekiel 36:26 NLT – Believers get a new heart, spiritually reborn into God’s family.

    Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir. Galatians 4:6-7 NIV — Before they were servants and friends. But now, when you are Born Again, you are a child of God! We have spiritual fellowship that Adam lost for all when he sinned.

    “If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”

    Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

    Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

    “All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. John 14:15-27 NIV — God is not going to dwell in a corrupt house. Only a spirit that has been renewed by faith in Jesus is acceptable.

    Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. —— You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. Romans 8:1-2, 9-11 NIV — I love this verse. There is NOW NO CONDEMNATION. God is not in some distance place. He is my Heavenly Father. We can have an intamcy with God that was not available until Jesus rose from the dead and placed his blood on the Heavenly Mercy Seat.

    Also see all of Paul’s writings, heck read the entire New Testament which reveals what the New Birth is all about.

    Do you want to rethink what you wrote about the heart? If you think someone is being deceived by their heart, they don’t have the Lord living in them as His Word promises. But if they have been Born Again, there is no deception in the heart. However, it is possible in an unrenewed mind. That is why we are to walk by faith (which resides in the heart), and not the mind or body. And renew our mind with God’s Word so that the spirit and mind and can be in agreement. Deception comes in the mind, not the renewed spirit.

    So since you are now a solid proponent of the authority of the Word, is God a murderer, or is He a God of love? Did He send His Word to heal or not? Is 1 Peter 2:24 and Isaiah 53 Truth or not?

    I ignored your first few statements because again, you are looking to prove God is evil, and I’m not going down that road as I said in my previous post. You claim that “Truth can only be found in God’s word.” God says He is love and does not change. Jesus says he does the works of his Father and they are one and the same. Is that Truth or not? I’m not trying to be difficult. This is an important point, if you claim that God’s Word is Truth. If God is personally telling you that HE IS LOVE and that HE DOES NOT CHANGE, that means He is either lying or something else is happening in these tough passages where evil is perpetrated. Do you believe a direct quote from God on His character and nature? If not, I think we may be done with this discussion because it will go nowhere if there is no agreement on this foundational point.

    Please end the snarkiness. I don’t know if you are trying to provoke me or not. And if I have crossed the line, I apologize. On a Christian thread, I would think there would be much more we agree on than disagree.

    376 posted on Monday, March 12, 2012 3:52:24 PM by Kandy Atz (“Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.”)


  106. [Hard to get these fonts remotely right . . . ahhh well, not the priority for now]


    To: metmom

    I apologize that I did not answer earlier. I was away for almost a day and it had fallen off the page. I was not back online until very early this morning and only for a moment.

    This is not going to answer your question. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal what has prevented manifestation of His promises in your life. It could be unforgiveness, unconfessed sin, past hurts, anger or any number of hindrances. I was bitter because I thought God had brought everything on me and I just wanted to end my life. It took much prayer and time in God’s Word to build my faith and remove all those roadblocks.

    The first step for me was to realize and admit once an for all that God is a GOOD God. Blaming God will short circuit your faith immediately as will fear and unbelief.

    If you are Born Again, how do you know? It was based on faith in God’s Word and confessing Jesus as your Savior and Lord. Every promise in the Bible is received the same way.

    As I read your questions I sense that there is lots of anger, frustration and pain. If that is not the case, I apologize. I can certainly relate if that is the case. I had to reach a point in my life (and I am always working to improve) that I believe God’s Word (which is TRUTH) above anything else. God is Spirit and His Word is above the temporal world (which IS subject to change and yield to His Word) where we live.

    You see that in the life of Jesus. He operated above natural laws. If a mob tried to kill him, he would simply walk away. Sickness and even death was no big deal. A giant hungry crowd, not a problem for the Lord. He overcame because of the Words he spoke, and because he is the Word made flesh.

    We are called to be imitators of Christ. But we are living in a fallen world with satan doing his best to lie, mislead and deceive people away from the Truth. We are surrounded by unbelief, tradition, symptoms, and distractions. Heck, just on this thread there have been multiple posts that are convinced that God does not heal and declare anyone that claims that He does is a heretic! That is not an environment that builds faith because faith comes from hearing God’s Word.

    I will not be able to convince you. Nor do you want to put faith in someone’s testimony or experiences – that will always fail you. You want to put your faith only on the Word. There are hundreds of promises of healing in the Bible. They need to be yours, personally. Get before God and declare those promises until they are grounded in your spirit. That needs to be YOUR TRUTH. Then it will manifest in your life. Sometimes immediately, sometimes a little slower, but God does not lie and His Word can be trusted.

    This was dropped in my spirit while I was at the gym. Maybe this helps on some of the greater questions in your post. Prayerfully consider this.

    The children of Israel had made their way to the Promised Land and it was right there. All they had to do was possess it. Moses sent 12 spies to search out the land. They came back and reported that it was just as wonderful as God had promised. Two spies, Joshua and Caleb, insisted that they should go up at once and possess it because they were well able. The other 10 insisted it was not possible because there were giants in the land.

    There was nothing untrue initially about what the 10 spies reported until they began talking fear and unbelief. There was a HIGHER TRUTH in play. God had GIVEN them the land. It belonged to them. They simply had to take it by faith. They had to see the victory in their hearts before they could physically possess it.

    The entire congregation believed the 10 spies that it was not possible – God called this an EVIL REPORT. Because of their collective unbelief, a whole generation died in the wilderness. This was NOT God’s will. This was their choice based on what they believed and spoke.

    Nobody that believed the evil report entered the Promised Land. Only two people that were alive at that time walked into their inheritance – Joshua and Caleb. Why? Because they believed God had given them the land and they were ready and eager to possess it.

    You can read the story in Numbers 13 & 14 and Joshua.

    I can assure you in the name of Jesus, that God is more eager for you to be healthy and whole than you could ever imagine. That is why he endured the beatings, the torture, the time on the cross and spiritual death – there was no worst possible punishment for Jesus than being apart from the Father.

    This will most likely be my last post on this thread. It has gotten personal and not an environment for discussing the Bible in love. And this week is very exciting and Blessed.

    As John prayed for all Believers, I pray for you:

    Dear friend, I hope all is well with you and that you are as healthy in body as you are strong in spirit. 3 John 1:2 NLT

    378
    posted on Monday, March 12, 2012 3:56:31 PM
    by Kandy Atz
    (“Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.”)

    Post #378


  107. To: metmom; Quix; boatbums; caww; smvoice; presently no screen name; Lera

    I have not been following the posts in this strategy except for the few I see pinged to me, but apparently there is a conflict as to whether God always heals, and the reason why one does not receive his healing.

    On this, I will say that I believe that healing is definitely provided for in the atonement, (Isaiah 53:4, 5; Matthew 8:17; James 5:14-16) in that while it is consistent with God’s nature and will to heal, manifesting his grace and power, and lack of faith and obedience can indeed prevent deliverance, healing, victory, etc.but it likewise is consistent with the nature and will not to heal, as he has higher purposes in mind, and which can take more faith especially enduring faith – then it may for one to be delivered. And thus lack of faith and obedience prevents what God is seeking to perfect in us. And I can testify the reality of both victory in faith and the lack of victory because of an evil heart of unbelief.

    These two aspects of faith, that of deliverance, and that of enduring until deliverance, is see in the hall the faith of Hebrews 11. In which some,

    “through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again:” (Hebrews 11:33-35a)

    But then there is the keyword “others,”

    “…and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. “ (Hebrews 11:35b-38)

    Yet these all obtained a good report through faith, (Hebrews 11:39) though being before Christ they received not the promise, but awaited his death and resurrection, wherein he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto , and entered into the glory of God, which is another study.

    The point is that by faith, we may escape the edge of the sword as well as be able to endure being sawn into two, and the latter is not because of lack of face for the former.

    There was a book called Streams in the Desert, by Mrs. Charles E Cowman, a missionary evangelists with her husband in Japan (one of the cofounders of the Oriental Missionary Society, now the One Mission Society; formerly OMS International), which I read daily a few years ago while I was going through a long time of seeking the Lord.

    They believed in divine healing, and were hard-working missionaries in a hard mission field, which required and saw much faith. However in his late 40s shells began to have any heart problems. They spent a little time back in America are seeking to recover but soon returned to campaign more for Christ in Japan.

    Having returned to America numerous heart attacks forced him to rest at his home in California and he suffered in great pain during the next six years, yet he always kept a positive attitude while continuing his work for the Lord. “Although broken in body, he kept an oversight of the home office and every department of work on the field, dictating letters by the hundreds.” Finally, a stroke paralyzed his entire left side, and a few weeks later he died.

    But apparently during this time Mrs. Cowman, “Lettie, “collected many different articles on faith and patience from the many Christian periodicals to that period of time (and which I think was toward the end of the golden age of Protestant evangelical faith). That Mrs. Cowman believed in divine healing is clear from her October 30 entry, (http://www.crosswalk.com/devotionals/desert/streams-in-the-desert-march-30-11535966.html)

    Yet like so many others of strong faith before them, he received the reality of divine healing in this life, but awaited the future revelation, when is faith would be made sight.

    And it was because of her husband’s old prolonged illness that Mrs. Cowman would provide to the Christian world oneof the most famous daily devotionals ever written. The reality is that if everyone was healthy and wealthy then we would be a most shallow people, as suffering within the body of Christ is actually necessary to enlarge our hearts. For as the Scriptures teach, this fosters interdependence and community, “For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. “ (1 Corinthians 12:24-26)

    And in our quest for a immediate deliverance and healing, we miss the greater priority God’s, who has predestinated us to be “joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together,” (Romans 8:17) For this is a attribute of saving faith.

    “There is a spiritual law of choosing, believing, abiding, and holding steady in our walk with God, which is essential to the working of the Holy Ghost either in our sanctification or healing.” Charles E Cowman

    Now for me to walk in it as i should.

    381
    posted on Monday, March 12, 2012 7:50:02 PM

    by daniel1212

    #381


  108. To: boatbums; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; GiovannaNicoletta; HossB86; …

    Photobucket

    Photobucket

    There’s not a shred of Scriptural support
    for such an
    ASSUMPTION.

    And an
    ASSUMPTION IT IS
    stemming, obviously,
    from biases and doctrines of man
    not at all consistent
    with the whole counsel of Scripture.

    As I’ve watched and pondered this doctrine
    over the last 45-50 or so years

    it has been obvious that the doctrine was
    concocted by folks who were uncomfortable to
    utterly frenetically hostile
    to HOLY SPIRIT BEING IN CHARGE
    of THEIR lives.
    Cobbling together farcical doctrines
    to flatter folks !!!CONTROL!!! phreaque psychologies
    is not at all a route to Biblical Truth.

    Wellllllllll,
    I have news
    for any who claim to be
    CHRISTIAN.
    Jesus is
    LORD
    OF
    ALL
    OR HE’S NOT LORD
    AT ALL
    IN THE LIFE CONCERNED.

    392
    posted on Monday, March 12, 2012 9:05:54 PM
    by Quix

    #392

  109. To: boatbums; Joya

    For some reason,

    My students don’t have such problems with what I say. I can’t think of a single case lo these many years. If someone misunderstands, or is not clear, they ask questions. I train them to do that very early and give them a variety of ways to do so. Also, the bulk of the rest of the class is quick to help set the occasionally mystified student straight.

    However, in terms of the misconstructions on what I say that are so common on FR, THOSE JUST DON’T OCCUR in my classroom. And THAT is really fascinating.

    All the more so because as Joya and a list of students—one or more who’s a FREEPER—would attest—what you see on FR is pretty much what you get of me in any context.

    However, Maybe I shouldn’t have answered your post at all. It may be over the line into making it personal.

    #394


  110. To: Kandy Atz

    God is a GOOD God. Blaming God will short circuit your faith immediately as will fear and unbelief.

    AMEN!!! AMEN!!!

    He overcame because of the Words he spoke, and because he is the Word made flesh.

    AMEN!! Words have power – Speak The Word…

    just on this thread there have been multiple posts that are convinced that God does not heal and declare anyone that claims that He does is a heretic! That is not an environment that builds faith because faith comes from hearing God’s Word.

    WELL SAID!!

    EXCELLENT POST!! And it sounds like we have the same TEACHER!!

    This will most likely be my last post on this thread.

    Yep. I know what you mean.

    THANK YOU!

    401
    posted on Monday, March 12, 2012 9:38:07 PM
    by presently no screen name

    #401


  111. To: boatbums

    assuring everybody that he is entirely Biblical

    As I’ve documented in some detail, that is a THOROUGHLY INACCURATE ASSERTION.

    Which demonstrates again how silly it is for me to try and respond rationally to a list of folks on the thread, when my words are soooooo off the wall misrepresented.

    Photobucket

    #403

  112. To: Quix

    I say that are so common on FR, THOSE JUST DON’T OCCUR in my classroom. And THAT is really fascinating.

    Your classroom doesn’t have the critical spirit in it like here which brings on confusion. Seems post after post is making this thread about you, making it personal. Interesting but not really.

    Back to your cousin, let me know if she gets a book together. I’m sure Copeland with be featured in it as God used him.

    God is good ALL THE TIME!!

    406

    posted on Monday, March 12, 2012 9:53:02 PM
    by presently no screen name

    #406

  113. To: Quix


    LOL!!!!!!!!

    That reminds me of my brother when we were growing up. That shadow part in the pix, he did it often. He, being the clown in family, we were always laughing together. Thank God my family laughed a lot, God put me in the right family!!

    “A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones” Proverbs 17:22

    410
    posted on Monday, March 12, 2012 10:09:53 PM

    by presently no screen name

    #410


  114. To: boatbums

    There are extremes on both sides, and Copeland and company are one side.

    Requiring that speaking in tongues is necessary to be saved is as wrong as dogmatically holding that any who do speak in tongues are not saved.

    As regards the latter, the characteristics which Paul taught would accompany the coming of that which is perfect (1Cor. 13:10-13) are not now yet fully realized, as despite a having wholly inspired revelation we still do not see face to face, but when the perfect revelation of Christ comes, then we shall know even as we are known.

    “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. “ (1 John 3:2)

    But gifts are gifts = chrisms- and chrisms do not equal character, which is the more primary issue, and like any tool, character determines whether it will used or abused, the latter being predominate with tongues me thinks, besides other buses of so many so-called “faith teachers.”

    “And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. “ (1 Corinthians 13:13)

    Have a God night.

    414
    posted on Monday, March 12, 2012 10:18:31 PM
    by daniel1212

    #414


  115. To: boatbums

    Sounds good. Happy to play accordingly.

    I only discuss religious stuff when students ask specific questions.

    One of the chapters includes a hefty segment on the sociological and psychological aspects of spiritual beliefs and practices, however.

    #421


  116. To: caww; Quix; metmom; presently no screen name; smvoice; boatbums

    “So the fact tongues brings such division and confusion among the church memebers….it was not hard to see something was very wrong about the whole movement.”

    To be fair caww,I’ve seen the gospel do pretty much the same thing in church.

    Me personally,I’ve not spoken in tongues…much…I’ve sort of tried it or ‘let’ it if you know what I mean.It didn’t particularly click with me,I didn’t like it for whatever reason(a reason that eludes me to this day) However I’m well aware that sometimes when I have a bad feeling about something,it aint always the Spirit of God but rather my own flesh squirming.Sometimes it’s difficult to tell…”who can know it?”

    On Kenneth Copeland,I’ve not before read the quotes posted on this thread and some of them are troubling to say the least.However,I watched His broadcast here in Oz (430am!)for about 10-12 years and sort of got to know him and where he was coming from and I had absolutely no doubt that he ‘got it’ and many of his sermons were,to me at least,very strong spiritual meat.Many many times during his sermons he would look down the camera with that big Texan block head of his and say something that was straight from God to me and boy oh boy did I ever feel convicted! He was and is to me one of the most annointed preachers of the Word that I have ever heard.

    “…micophone picked up Copeland saying…”Take the mark of the beast””

    If Copeland actually meant what that statement seems to be implying he meant,that would indeed stagger my mind and grieve me greatly.I hope that doesn’t trouble any here,I’m just thankfull for what I learned way back when listening to his sermons.

    Hoping this thread doesn’t get locked.

    God bless

    #435

  117. To: caww

    “…they are so full of fear about that they simply continue on.”

    That’s what troubles me,the above is something that totally contradicts what I learned from him on who it is we follow.Stranger things have happened I suppose but I sure wouldn’t have picked him as a heretic.I still don’t as it happens,certainly not on the basis of five minutes worth of Googling and I’d hope no one else here would rush to trash any brother or sister in Christ either.

    Certainly I could be wrong,but over a decade of listening to someone and getting to know them from what they’ve said (and the way they have said it) is not going down the drain with half a dozen quotes on google and since I’m no follower of his or anyone elses for that matter,I’m not sure I’m overly inclined to follow up much.

    I suppose that if we all did what 2 Peter 1:10 says then there wouldn’t be anywhere near the amount of deception going on.

    437
    posted on Tuesday, March 13, 2012 4:41:12 AM
    by mitch5501

    #437


  118. To: mitch5501; presently no screen name

    I encourage you to trust your discernment and 10+ years of listening and the edification therefrom.

    The only explanation I might have for the “Mark of The Beast” thing is the sort of thing that happened a few times in a very anointed house church ministry I knew in San Diego.

    The couple leading it—an MD and his wife—experienced an interesting phenomena several times-I think one or two of the other leaders did as well.

    As well as I can describe it—sometimes the enemy caused one of the partners to hear something that was not said. The partner really heard audibly words that were twisted by the enemy and from the enemy to be heard as though the other partner said them.

    Other times, it was as though one partner actually said things that the speaker insisted they had NOT said. In those cases, it was soooo out of character for the speaker that the others knew the enemy must have been involved.

    I believe I can discern Kenneth’s heart and spirit as well. There’s no way he’s sold out to anything or anyone but Jesus the Christ of Nazareth who came in the flesh . . . died on the Cross . . . rose again . . . etc.

    There’s no way Kenneth advocates for anyone that they take the Mark of The Beast.

    The closest I can imagine to that is the Scripture about let him who’s righteous be righteous still; him that’s evil, be evil still.

    Thanks for your commentary. It’s congruent with my long ago limited listening to a number of Copeland’s tapes.

    I say again . . . which folks glibly ignore . . . virtually ANYONE who had 100% of their statements—much more so their thoughts—broadcast routinely for decades—would have more than enough fodder for other Christians to consign them to hell or the funny farm.

    That’s true for virtually any preacher and any Christian.

    People have no idea, seemingly, about the hideousness of the critical spirit. Judging in the flesh is not pretty and it does not have pretty consequences.

    438
    posted on Tuesday, March 13, 2012 7:18:45 AM
    by Quix

    #438


  119. What is the point of praying in a language you don’t understand? What if what you are saying is offensive to God?

    I hesitate to even answer, but I do so for the sake of those who want to learn:

    1. The purpose is not for the individual to understand, but for the individual and those around to be edified.
    2. If speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit, how is that the Holy Spirit would cause anyone to say anything offensive to God???

    439

    posted on Tuesday, March 13, 2012 7:41:48 AM
    by jda

    #439

  120. To: mitch5501

    Please pray about this in terms of your discomfort with ‘tongues.’

    —it’s not per se natural in the sense of being familiar, comfortable from familiarity etc. Of course it’s going to feel somewhat uncomfortable initially—IF ONE FOCUSES on the sensations vs on Jesus.

    —Satan has a strong investment in tweaking up our natural discomforts with anything which would facilitate communication with or closeness with Jesus.

    —we are, as mortals, usually, far too addicted to ‘fear of man’ and approval of others. How does one imagine approval for doing something there’s NO SCRIPT FOR—NO WAY TO “GET IT RIGHT” FOR YOU BECAUSE IT’S SUPPOSED TO BE UNIQUE FOR YOU BETWEEN YOU AND GOD.

    —I think that’s ACTUALLY ONE of the strategies, objectives and benefits of tongues—it FORCES—in a sense—us to ‘get over our-selves’ and abandon to God. NOT in a possessed sense—HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT LIKE DEMONIC SPIRITS ON SUCH SCORES. He only comes and influences as in a dance where He’s invited.

    —And, the enemy is always looking for a chance—often for months or longer afterwards—even with folks who are energetically praying routinely in tongues—the enemy is looking for a chance to get them to focus on the sensations etc. and to start doubting and feeling so uncomfortable that they abandon the whole thing because he knows how powerful it is in their relationship with God and against satan’s kingdom.

    —And, as The Lord made clear to me one time when I no longer experienced the ‘electric Holy Spirit goose bumps’ types of sensations when praying in tongues—WAS I DOING IT IN FAITH OR NOT? DID I RECEIVE SALVATION BY FAITH OR NOT? WAS I GOING TO TRUST HOLY SPIRIT TO CONVEY HIS PERFECT MEANING TO WHATEVER SHOUDS I UTTERED, OR NOT.

    —That settled it for me. Sometimes the electric Holy Spirit goose bumps are there and usually not. As one of the best pastors of my life said . . . we walk by faith, not by feelings. But praise God when the feelings come.

    —Most often, the supernatural sensations are there when I’m ministering to someone and the anointing comes over me—as can happen when I’m praying in English or in tongues. When the experience occurs when I’m praying in tongues as with a stuck client situation or when functioning on the altar prayer team—the interpretation follows and I give that.

    Perhaps you could consider going back to God and noting that you are eager to receive and practice all the Biblical Gifts of His Spirit that he has for you. That you’d at least like to be able to pray in tongues. Then step out in faith obediently with sound sequences not from a lanugage you have learned and see how God affirms such efforts with fruit in your life.

    Thanks for sharing your testimony. I think you are quite accurate about Kenneth. Most of the greats of the Bible had flaws ‘worthy buckets of rocks.’

    If someone is sold out to Jesus and overwhelmingly talks like it and more walks like it—that’s good enough for me.

    #440


  121. To: mitch5501; Alamo-Girl; presently no screen name

    INDEED.

    The Gospel itself brings division when folks start earnestly practicing it in their relationships.

    The rebellious are not interested. And unless they repent, confess, turn from such and let go of their rebellion, there WILL BE DIVISION.

    Tongues is sort of a stark challenge to those who are addicted to !!!!CONTROL!!!! phreaque stuff of themselves and others—IN THE FLESH. It is a call, a challenge to surrender the flesh to Holy Spirit’s direction. That’s a key reason why !!!!CONTROL!!!! phreaque folks are so resistent and hostile to it.

    The battle in our Christian walk is virtually always with our flesh. We try to perfect ourselves in the flesh. We try to do ‘the Christian thing’ in the flesh. It never works.

    Letting go and letting God is a dance of self-control and responsibility to do what we are called of God to do and that usually BY LETTING GO OF LEADING THE DANCE ABANDONING CONTROL AND FOLLOWING SUBMISSIVELY AND COOPERATIVELY AS HOLY SPIRIT LEADS THE DANCE.

    It’s a delicate fine line.

    And it’s a line that teachers, preachers, prophetic people, tongues and interpretation people have a LOT of experience with. It is easy to cross back and forth over the line of in or out of the flesh.

    MANY people get frustrated with that phenomenon and find it easier to just give up the frustrating challenge to remain operating consistently in Holy Spirit vs the flesh and they just avoid teaching, preaching, ministering, prophetic sharing or tongues and interpretation rather than risk BEING WRONG!

    WELLLL WHOOOP T DO. That assumes that somehow by such avoidance they’ll manage to do the rest of their Christian walk perfectly and never in the flesh. WRONG!

    Just because someone is walking out some other aspect of the Christian life that’s not so public or vulnerable to criticism does NOT mean it’s LESS in the flesh! It’s just easier hidden or white-washed.

    PART OF THE PURPOSE OF THIS LIFE IS TO DEMONSTRATE TO US AND THE WORLD

    THAT

    APART FROM HIM,

    WE CAN DO

    NOTHING!

    Sigh.

    Yet perversely, we still

    STRIVE IN THE FLESH

    TO PERFECT

    OURSELVES—IN OUR USUAL !CONTROL! PHREAQUE WAYS—LEAVING GOD OUT OF IT BECAUSE—THANK YOU VERY MUCH, WE CAN HANDLE *THIS* PART OF PERFECTING OURSELVES. . . . OR SO WE DELUDEDLY PRETEND.

    STRIVING in the flesh

    will always produce wood, hay and stubble or worse.

    That’s true teaching a Bible study; praying for a loved one; preaching; singing; whatever

    used tampon WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS we are so proud of our POLISHED, WHITEWASHED, PRISSY STRIVING in.

    Isaiah 64:6

    But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy [minstral] rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

    None of us likes to think that our best efforts in our flesh are such a stench.

    Virtually all Christians at some point, to some degree like to pretend that in spite of being ‘saved by faith alone’ we are now earning our Salvation by our prissy self-righteous works in the flesh.

    We feel more smug and more confident of being on the right path and landing in Heaven BECAUSE of the more hours we pray; or the more we give; or the more street people we bring to church; or the more church positions we hold or the more we witness in lines at Walmart; . . . .

    But it’s all a self-defeating farce to pretend that works of the flesh will ever produce righteousness or fruit of Holy Spirit.

    It’s like giving alms before men for praise of men. We already have the reward.

    ONLY HOLY SPIRIT SATURATED WORKS PRODUCE FRUIT OF HOLY SPIRIT.

    Other stuff may LOOK good TO MAN. But it’s a trap. It will burn up. It’s wood hay and stubble.

    GOD MAY STILL BRING GOOD OF IT . . . but that’s because OF GOD—not our works.

    I’m reminded of my Mother’s cousins . . . a couple of cowboys some 60 or so years ago. They were up in Montana or Wyoming, I think it was. And they needed money to get back to Texas.

    They were backslidden Christians reared in church so they decided to hold a revival in some park or some such place. They went for several nights and a dozen or 3 people walked forward and made professions of faith in Christ.

    The cousins were unsaved at the time—certainly not walking with Jesus. They were drinking, cussing, carousing cowboys.

    Nevertheless, not only did they get money to return to Texas. YEARS LATER, THEY MET AGAIN SOME OF THE FOLKS WHO CAME FORWARD ACCEPTING CHRIST in that revival—and those individuals in some cases were still WALKING WITH GOD. God used even the cowboys’ works of flesh to produce a lasting spiritual walk in other individuals’ lives.

    HOWEVER, THOSE WORKS OF FLESH DID NOT PRODUCE HOLY SPIRIT FRUIT IN THOSE COWBOYS’ LIVES. They had some repenting to do to get back right with God and experience God’s pleasure and fruit in their personal lives.

    In my experience, tongues is a daily opportunity to surrender my conscious intellectual desperate need to control my life and LET GO AND LET GOD—in a sense. IT is NOT as though Holy Spirit forces my speech muscles to work like a puppet. It is a dance.

    Yes, there are times when the supernatural sensations come over me and I do pray with great force and no sense of personally controlling my speech muscles. However, I can still stop and start or modify such at will. I just prefer, wisely, to go with Holy Spirit’s leading in that dance.

    And, yes, it was not entirely comfortable for a self-conscious teen the first many times. However, thankfully, Holy Spirit’s PRESENCE was so wonderful, the discomfort was far secondary.

    Later on, when the ‘electric goosbumps’ aspect was gone and I was challenged to walk by faith, I had to ignore the discomfort or fear of many aspects and pray in tongues when it was fitting regardless. Of course, that wasn’t for public consumption but was between God and I directly. Nevertheless, those nearby could hear me mumbling along in tongues under my breath and criticize if they so felt like it. I had to ignore that prospect.

    Anyway—FWIW, BRO. May God lead you in His will for each day of your walk with Him. Thanks for sharing.

    #443


  122. To: metmom; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; GiovannaNicoletta; HossB86; …

    Photobucket

    Photobucket

    .

    IT DEPENDS ENTIRELY

    On the heart attitude, the spirit such things are done in.

    The exact same behaviors can be IN THE SPIRIT or IN THE FLESH depending.

    This issue seems to be on what is a real critical issue in terms of spiritual growth and maturity for all of us. About the time we think we understand it–get it–the next lesson begins in another area and we realize we are back in kindergarten on it.

    I don’t have any confidence that my humble words can influence y’all’s understanding on such scores in the least. If Holy Spirit doesn’t make the principles and truths real to you, I have no other solution.

    I just know what the Biblical truth is on such scores in terms of my own life and experiences through many painful lessons.

    #449


  123. To: metmom

    Wrong assumptions again.

    Inaccurate accusations again.

    You didn’t have an observant relationship with the 80 people, I did.

    #450

  124. To: Quix

    I don’t have any confidence that my humble words can influence y’all’s understanding on such scores in the least. If Holy Spirit doesn’t make the principles and truths real to you, I have no other solution.

    And that, Quix, is the bottom line. The Holy Spirit DOES His job but not everyone has ears to hear. They need to keep going around the mountain on the potters wheel until their preconceived worldly ideas are taken out/burnt off so they can hear what HE IS saying.

    Some are hell bent they are right – hardened heart – so the HS can’t enlighten them on certain things they don’t know. So you are right, we can’t do a thing.

    This is no biggie – speaking in tongues. They don’t have to do it but get to do it. However, through this I have seen you ridiculed, talked down to with a critical spirit, questioning you about your own affairs, your students.

    And to another poster, ridiculed and snarkiness when he took his/her time to explained things. The HS could have been speaking through someone and they wouldn’t know it, thus not receive it.

    Pointing out in others, what they perceived as flaws ‘feels’ better because ‘they know’. Lots of stuff for the refiners fire to be burned off.

    So a bigger issue was manifested here. And perhaps, why, they don’t hear the HS – hardened heart, hardened soil so it can’t take the seed in to eventually have fruit.

    “You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks”.

    451
    posted on Tuesday, March 13, 2012 11:18:23 AM
    by presently no screen name

    #451


  125. To: metmom; presently no screen name

    1 Corinthians 14:5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

    Funny how everyone virtually ignores this verse.

    Photobucket

    .

    The

    ONLY
    ONES

    I see ignoring that verse on this thread

    is y’all.

    Please point out on the thread ANYWHERE y’all have

    noted,

    much more so PRAISED GOD FOR PAUL’S ANNOINTED EXHORTATION:

    1 Corinthians 14:5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,

    It’s difficult for me to think of a greater job of ignoring and denial of a Biblical truth and exhortation in all my 10+ years on FR.

    That dog won’t hunt.

    458
    posted on Tuesday, March 13, 2012 1:20:15 PM
    by Quix

    #458

  126. To: Quix


    Exactly. How many times where your words ignored or misunderstood?

    Funny how everyone virtually ignores this verse

    Everyone but……no pride there./s

    I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy.

    They don’t cancel out each other nor does it say NOT to speak in tongues, if fact, it says the opposite. Nor does it say you MUST speak in tongues.

    The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

    Exactly. You need an interpreter so the church can understand what was spoken in tongues and, therefore, be edified. So having someone speaking in tongues WITH an interpreter in a church setting and someone speaking prophesy to the church are the same – they both edify the church.

    IMO, those with the gift of prophesy is better (as Paul states) for the church as they can do it SOLO.

    474
    posted on Tuesday, March 13, 2012 4:43:20 PM
    by presently no screen name

    #474


  127. To: reaganaut

    Photobucket

    Attitude and spirit embedded in questions count a lot to me.

    Besides that question has been answered on numerous threads like this in the last 10+ years. I don’t need to answer it again for the umpteenth time.

    There are plenty of other sources folks can get an adequate answer to that on.

    CHRIST DID NOT answer the pharisees with such questions–even if folks in the crowd might have benefitted from such an answer.

    475
    posted on Tuesday, March 13, 2012 4:46:05 PM
    by Quix

    #475

  128. To: Quix


    Some has called you a kook, some questioned your teachings skills, some implied you are wrong, you are deceived, listen to ‘them’ and blah, blah and YET you are being badgered to answer their legitimate questions. You can’t make this stuff up!! LOL!!!

    I’d do it but back to work for me. That’s a good word you posted earlier about the blind man. I took a break and read in my bible some more. When you meditate on it, it certainly tells a story.

    480
    posted on Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:35:37 PM
    by presently no screen name

    480

  129. To: presently no screen name

    INDEED.

    Obviously there’s a problem for some with what Christ asserted here:

    John 10:27
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    I wonder if they aren’t HIS sheep or if they just have lots of wax, pride, self-righteousness, prissy rigidities, !!!!CONTROL!!!! phreaqueism and stubbornness in their ears. I HOPE it’s the latter . . . as horrific as the latter are, they MIGHT be worse than the former.

    481
    posted on Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:43:10 PM
    by Quix

    #481


  130. To: boatbums; metmom; Quix; caww; smvoice; presently no screen name; Lera; wmfights; Forest Keeper

    Thank you for your reply BB. You did some good research as it is good to see you referencing both Henry and Barnes, and both of whom see the sensation as occurring in the next life, being “fully met by a reference to the future world than by a reference to the state of things in the church on earth.”

    Let me first say that due to the excesses and often problematic nature of discerning true vs. false (so-called) “sign gifts,” then part of me is more desirous to hold to the cessationist position. However, objective analysis on my part of the arguments pro and con would not allow me that position, and which conclusion I came to while still a part of a fundamental Baptist church in which the pressure was on to condemn all Pentecostals along with cults. And yet i hold many cessationists in high regard as often being the better preachers overall.

    While as you can see, I do not sanction the untouchable status or extremes certain faith healers presume and teach, but neither can I give God a sabbatical rest from doing as he ever did (especially in Acts) in confirming his word with the supernatural attestation of miraculous signs and wonders, through His instruments, as promised. (Mk. 16:17,18)

    The problem is such sign gifts can be fabricated or imitated by the devil who seeks to operate in the same level that God does. Thus the first three miracles of Moses were duplicated by magicians. Faced with such some choose to take the safe but somewhat sterile route, that of the disallowing all miracles, or at least those done through man. On the other extreme of those who open the door so wide that both souls of God as well as demons could work such in the church.

    However, faced with evil, God through Moses overcame them with good in showing greater power, and and gave the law. God will never be outdone by the devil, and and provides good laws for the use of things.

    And it is a gospel promise that “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. ” (John 14:12)

    While “greater” here can mean in quantity, usually afforded by having more than 3 1/2 years in which to do miracles and other works, and perhaps “he” (which actual word is not in the Greek), is in the general sense, the point is that the church of the living and true God is manifested to be such not simply in character but also by supernatural attestation, for God has confirmed his word through the ages with supernatural manifestations, without which we would not even have the Scriptures (people did not listen to Moses because he had the right credentials from college). And therefore, the early church “went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. ” (Mark 16:20) .

    While this supernatural attestation is indeed primarily through the preaching of “the Gospel of the grace of God” (Acts 20:24b) which convicts souls of sin and righteousness and judgment, and which effects manifest regeneration by faith in the risen Christ to save them by his sinless shed blood, the gospel promises in the record of Acts extend beyond that.

    While the most overt supernatural attestation can be seen being given to new revelation, as in the case of Moses and the Lord Jesus and Peter and Paul and the other apostles, yet the working of miracles was not restricted to the apostles (the deacons Philip and Stephen also did miracles), nor simply to instituting the new covenant, but in both Testaments the Lord confirmed His word with supernatural attestation, and by which truth is established, and not simply by proclamation. “For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. ” (1 Corinthians 4:20) There is nothing that foretells that God would cease from doing as he ever did, and if we claim to be the New Testament church of the living God then we dare not put the book of Acts in a Museum.

    Your argument that has God giving gifts in order to confirm His gospel but removing them as unnecessary because the Gospel is confirmed by the “sign and wonder” of the authority of God’s word changing hearts, would also render the former class of supernatural attestation as unnecessary in the first century, as the gospel most certainly changed hearts then in manifest ways. But God giveth more grace.

    The larger argument is that the New Testament, having being completed, then the attestation of signs and wonders was no longer needed or warranted. However, while we believe the New Testament is complete, yet apart from evidence the lost now are no more likely to be convinced of this or of the Divine inspiration of any of the Bible than the lost were that the words of Paul, etc. were inspired by God in his day.

    Nor is it reasonable that the supernatural attestation which my be given in providing warrant for faith should be more restricted in scope or instrumentality than what the very Book we call them to believe testifies to.

    In short, the supernatural attestation of both the changed life as well as other supernatural signs which are correspondent to the promises of Almighty God can be no less efficacious or needful today to the lost believer who is a seeker of truth, Especially in the light (or rather the darkness) of the pervasive plethora of persuasive perverted competing persuasions.

    [It is true that those who will not hear Moses would not be persuaded even though one should rise from the dead. But this certainly does not mean that one must even know that there is an Old Testament out to be saved, as helpful as that would be, as seen in cases of Scripturally illiterate Gentiles in Acts, and in the light of Romans chapter 2, but it is needful that that they hear the truth given them, whatever essence of the law they had, and the words of the gospel, and such can be provided warrant to believe that gospel by supernatural Divine attestation.]

    It it true that the cessationist rejection of gifts being given to men to work miracles does not disallow that God sovereignly can do miracles, yet not only does cessationism tend to foster little expectant faith that God would even sovereignly supernaturally heal etc., but this is a restriction that is more of a tradition of men than sound exegesis. The Holy Spirit says nothing in passages such as first Corinthians 12 which makes a distinction between other gifts and “sign gifts” as regards that the latter gifts are there only for limited time.

    And thus the cessationist argument almost rests entirely upon first Corinthians 13 and the meaning of “that which is perfect.” It is argued that the Greek word for “perfect” there is in the neuter and therefore cannot refer to Christ. However, I do not see it referring to Christ per se but to the perfect revelation of Christ. And as said, the characteristics which are to accompany the coming of that which is perfect do not fully correspond to what is realized with the completion of the New Testament Canon, but Scripturally this most easily is seen to refer to what will be realized with the coming of Christ.

    It is also argued that that in the book of Acts we see less accounts of miracles in the latter chapters. However, this is due to the change in the narrative, from accounts of Paul’s missionary activity as in chapter 19, in which “God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul,” (Acts 19:11) to his latter captivity, which offered few occasions to do miracles. Yet, consistent with other , when such an occasion presented itself even in the last chapter of Acts Paul then we see exercising his gift to do miracles. (Acts 28:3-9)

    As for the argument that little mention of miracle working is testified to by so-called “church fathers,” besides it being held that that we known only a small portion of what they all wrote, (and there is disagreement as to who they all were), yet a lack of the truly miraculous would be consistent with the slow spiritual declension of the church. Yet if the testimony of CFs is given weight in disallowing sign gifts in the post apostolic age, then it must be consistent, which it is not. It is said that,

    even Augustine of Hippo (a.D. 354- 430), who had originally adopted the view that miracles had ceased with the apostolic age, changed his opinion during the last two or three years of his life… A renowned twentieth-century specialist in Augustine, Peter Brown, stated that Augustine attempted to bring together various incidents of miracles “until they formed a single corpus, as compact and compelling as the miracles that had assisted the growth of the Early Church.” http://www.grmi.org/Richard_Riss/evidences/37mir.html

    Of course, not all miraculous claims are true or of God, for as said, the devil is an imitator, and having defended the perpetuity of all gifts as a doctrine, i will now say that I personally consider that perhaps most claims of the operation of these sign gifts today are falsely attributed or abused.

    As regards the former I speak mainly as concerns claims to prophecy, almost all of which I have heard were false when predictive, or without substantiation as having been spoken before the claimed fulfillment, while the rest mostly sound contrived, taking the Lord’s name in vain, tickling ears with promises of great blessings, revival and favor to a church that in reality desperately needs to hear more of James 4, in repentance and cleansing. Or unjustly condemning others in order to elevate themselves. However, I do believe God can give someone a word from him, though such does not have the level of authority of Scripture and it is subject to it.

    I also think that even some cessationist have gifts such as the word of wisdom or discerning of spirits, even though they are not be aware that it is a a sign gift.

    Claims of healings also often have a poor record of verification, yet I’m certain that God does heal through persons so gifted as well as sovereignly, and I myself have been the beneficiary of healing through the former. As for tongues, while I cannot say that most are false, rarely are they exercised after the biblical manner in an assembly.

    Yet the fact that something is often fabricated or abused does not mean the genuine does not exist, or that the practice must necessarily be placed in suspension, as the Scriptural response to abuse seen in 1Cor. 14 was to institute regulations so that it may be efficacious.

    Cessationists also challenge those who believe in the perpetuity of gifts with the question as to why they do not go to hospitals and heal all the sick that are therein. That seems like a valid question if the those who believe in the perpetuity of gifts believe that is God’s will to always heal souls, in which itself is not as a true doctrine.

    Some cessationists also argue that the church that had the most spiritual gifts was also most carnal, which is a very dangerous argument for it infers that spiritual gifts fosters carnality. But what it does show is as said before that charisms do to not equal character.

    In summation, doctrinally i do not find that cessationist arguments (and i have not dealt with them all here) to be warranted, either in precept or in principle, and pray that God will do more, especially in the present skepticism and militant attacks on the faith, for in the face of such the early church prayed, “And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. ” (Acts 4:29-30)

    However, i myself am sadly hardly much of an example of a Pentecostal, yet i must oppose the abuse and excess and (worst of all) fabrications that so often characterizes such, to which leaders mainly will get an account. But while this effects a negative testimony of the gifts and the faith, and is Pentecostalism’s own worst enemy, yet it is also true that, as regards excesses, it is the pot that boils over that gets the attention, and not the one that is not even simmering. That being the institutionalized church, which is easy to slip into unless we seek to live a life of faith in such a way that if the Holy Spirit was removed and God did not manifestly act then all would collapse or die. Otherwise it must resort to other means, from the sword of men to Bingo to other worldly ways and gimmicks and hype.

    A Christian from a persecuted country is said to have wryly remarked after visiting America, “the one thing that amazed me about American Christians is the great things they can do without God.”

    Thank you for considering the long explanation my understanding of this issue. May walk in the light that God gives us and our consecration keep pace with His revelation.

    #491


  131. To: reaganaut; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; GiovannaNicoletta; HossB86; …

    What the naysayers obviously want . . . and what you even may mostly want

    is a fool proof formula that works flawlessly all the time in determining

    —a word from The Lord
    —an authentic prophetic source from God vs an imposter vs a crazy person vs a neophyte etc.

    etc.

    Ain’t gonna happen.

    God doesn’t work that way about such things.

    The closest are the Biblical criteria . . .

    —do they believe Jesus came in the flesh; is He lord of their lives
    —do their lives show it in fruit.

    God gave some criteria in the Old Testament. Then violated them Himself.

    David ate the shewbread and gave to his companions.

    About as soon as God establishes a new ritual or formula, he messes it up.

    He recognizes that those quickly become THE DEADLINESS OF RELIGION vs RELATIONSHIP.

    HE WANTS A DANCE.

    He wants to lead the dance.

    All that other stuff is !!!CONTROL!!! phreaque stuff from the flesh and it only yields death.

    People have been trying to package God into tidy little boxes from the beginning.

    he won’t fit.

    HE’LL *NEVER* FIT.

    This likely triggers lots of bristling outrage . . . yet the truth is still the truth.

    And this is my area of professional expertise.

    In my face to face life and on FR, the folks MOST !DEMANDING! in one way or another and one degree or another for a formula

    and/or

    for a stereotypic precisely pinned down nth’s degree proof in Scripture for a fool proof scrip to follow . . .

    are not comfortable without the clear scrip and RELIGIOUS RITUALS THEY CAN !!!!CONTROL!!!! and feel SAFE THEREBY.

    GOD WANTS *NONE* OF THAT.

    HE WANTS A DANCE.

    HE WANTS TO LEAD THE DANCE.

    He wants us to TRUST HIM to lead the dance and to keep the mashers away.

    Without RELIGION—ONLY RELATIONSHIP.

    All the demands on this thread have been for me to offer, prove and provide RELIGION to buttress my perspective.

    No thanks. That’s death. Why would I want to offer death to folks I love?

    The Lord confirms His written Word and His prophetic word a variety of ways tailored not only to each individual but also to where each individual is at the time.

    Virtually every authentic Christian I know has had at least once in their lives a period of great travail and in the midst of it from long tearful seeking God for solution and answers, they are reading along in the Bible and a verse jumps out at them with Holy Spirit quickening in some personally clear way that that verse has a specific meaning and answer for their desperate need.

    In most respects, it’s no more complicated than that. It’s just that God is creative and doesn’t usually prefer to do the same things very many times in a row.

    HE LEADS THE DANCE. And He leads it somewhat uniquely with each partner.

    #492


  132. To: boatbums; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; GiovannaNicoletta; HossB86; …
    WHAT A TIRESOME and terminally foolish STRAW DOG.

    It is totally absurd

    to assert that

    EXPERIENCE (A) IS ARBITRARILY HOLY, RIGHTEOUS AND RELIABLE

    WHILE

    EXPERIENCE (B) IS ARBITRARILY EVIL, CORRUPT, USELESS.

    That’s not even remotely reasonable.

    It’s certainly NOT Biblical.

    NO ONE

    has a clue that there even

    IS

    such a thing
    as a
    BIBLE

    apart from one’s EXPERIENCE of the wood pulp and ink.

    Sheesh!

    THINKING before typing is usually wiser than not doing so.

    Sigh.

    #497


  133. To: Manic_Episode

    Sqaw Girlfriends???

    I wouldn’t know how to handle your typing in tongues.

    I don’t trust my discernment that much, except at close range . . . USUALLY.

    I suppose one could type and pray in tongues that way. I see no reason why not.

    However, Please don’t expect me to interpret. I only occasionally feel that fall my lot and always in person or on the phone.

    #501


  134. To: metmom; presently no screen name

    Y’all are THOROUGHLY MISSING THE POINTS YET again.

    Which demonstrates yet again

    that I just don’t have the linguistic skills to be sufficiently effective so as to achieve actual communication with y’all.

    And the sense of futility is not recreationally even close to fun.

    507
    posted on Tuesday, March 13, 2012 10:49:57 PM
    by Quix

    #507


  135. To: metmom

    Photobucket .
    SAID HE,
    UTTERLY
    MYSTIFIED!

    .

    I’m beginning to think we aren’t even in the same galactic cluster. And that doesn’t even BEGIN to get into the emotionalities expressed.

    #508


  136. To: fishtank; Alamo-Girl; presently no screen name; Kandy Atz; johngrace; marbren

    This morning, I’ve done 2 things about such.

    1. I’ve asked Kenneth Copeland Ministries webmaster if there is any document etc. answering the stuff about Kenneth’s more silly statements. I may have filled out the wrong form and will correct that.

    2. I’ve asked my close relative and/or his wife to come on the thread and make a statement of their choosing.

    I don’t know that either one of them will. They have plenty on their plate.

    There may be a few readers interested in truth and Biblical truth . . . it seems the posters on y’all’s side are far MORE interested in outrageously unwarranted rock throwing instead of either one.

    I used to think that some of us more awake sorts of Believers regarding END TIMES EVENTS were more Biblically grounded and spiritually mature than most others. Perhaps that’s still true.

    However, if that’s true, then the Body of Christ is in a LOT WORSE SHAPE than even I imagined.

    Incredible. Absolutely shockingly incredible.

    I’m beginning to wonder if it’s only unbelievers who have their minds darkened by dark forces. Sigh.

    526
    posted on Wednesday, March 14, 2012 10:23:03 AM
    by Quix
    #526


  137. To: fishtank

    I don’t know a lot of things.

    I don’t understand a lot of mysteries.

    I do know y’all are wrong about whether Kenneth Copeland is an authentic Bible believing genuine Christian man of God, or not.

    I realize there’s nothing I can say to convince any of you otherwise.

    Enjoy y’all’s gilded buckets of rocks.

    We’ll definitely see what kinds of heavenly rewards accrue therefrom.

    #527


  138. To: fishtank; Alamo-Girl; presently no screen name; marbren; johngrace; Kandy Atz

    There’s certainly a mysterious element about all this on this and the other thread . . . that this psychologist/sociologist really would like to understand better.

    What on earth generates such an intense compulsive vicious dogpiling

    as though

    y’all’s side were comprised totally of super starving, rabid wolves descending on one rabbit.

    Fascinating.

    Shocking.

    Incredible.

    May God have mercy.

    528

    posted on Wednesday, March 14, 2012 10:38:21 AM
    by Quix

    #528


  139. To: Lx; Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; GiovannaNicoletta; HossB86; …

    Evidently the RM thinks your personal assaultiveness at #459, #478, etc and making it personal are not worth the bother . . .

    I’ll go ahead and comment.

    1. You have been here long enough to know what my UFO beliefs are.

    2. You are smart enough to know this thread is not about UFO’s.

    3. Evidently your bringing the topic up is totally for destructive purposes.

    4. I’m proud and humbled that God has seen fit to teach me all HE HAS TAUGHT me about UFO’s and their part in the Biblical END TIMES script the Anti-Christ and his globalist goons are playing out.

    5. I can only share as God directs and allows me to share. I cannot force folks to drink at the trough of truth.

    6. Many folks will have blood on their hands for hindering the truth about dangerous aspects of the times ahead when they could have done the opposite.

    7. All that will have to be God’s business.

    8. Like taste, there’s evidently no accounting for idiocy, stupidity, cluelessness, stubbornness, arrogance, vengeance flinging etc. All that too will have to be God’s business.

    531
    posted on Wednesday, March 14, 2012 10:49:09 AM

    by Quix

    #531


  140. To: metmom

    Thanks for your sweetness and light.

    I don’t know how to heal the relationship.

    If there is a Biblical way, I’m interested.

    I take those Scriptures about offering one’s offering etc. seriously.

    535
    posted on Wednesday, March 14, 2012 12:05:13 PM

    by Quix
    #535

    Comment #536 Removed by Moderator

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